ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

glorydaz

Well-known member
According to GA's logical conclusion ----- Adam didn't become a sinner because he sinned, he sinned because he was a sinner.

They are forced to come to that conclusion whether they admit it or not. If Adam was so perfect, why did he sin exactly the same way we do? What he passed down to us was the exact same human nature God has given us all. The ability to choose always has and always will have consequences.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
It is impossible because man does not have the "will" to not sin. He has a free will and when he sins it can be blamed on nothing but himself. But that does not change the fact that he has the "ability" to inherit eternal life by living a sinless life. And since he has the ability we can see that the Lord Jesus told the lawyer that if he would keep the law then he would inherit eternal life:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live"
(Lk.10:25-28).​

Surely the Lord Jesus would not tell anyone that they could inherit eternal life by keeping the law if that person was spiritually dead. If a person is dead spiritually then no amount of law-keeping could result in eternal life. The only way that a person can be justified in the eyes of God when he is spiritually dead is by the penalty being paid--he must be "justified by blood."

Dude, you're fulla hot air.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
They are forced to come to that conclusion whether they admit it or not. If Adam was so perfect, why did he sin exactly the same way we do? What he passed down to us was the exact same human nature God has given us all. The ability to choose always has and always will have consequences.

Define consequences. lol
 

musterion

Well-known member
It's really very simple.

God cannot lie.

He warned Adam and Eve what not to do.

If they had no real choice, or if He had secretly predestined them to disobey, then His warning was indeed a lie.

Since He did not lie - because He cannot - that means they did indeed have the ability to choose obedience or disobedience.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Why did Adam sin if it wasn't in his nature to do so? That's what you can't explain away.

Adam did what we all do....disobey God. He didn't pass down a thing God didn't create him with.

Side question: is it possible that while Adam was created in the likeness of God, we all are born in the likeness of [fallen] Adam (Gen 5:3)?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It is us who do not have the ability to do right until we are born again.

Here the LORD tells the Jews that they should be holy:

"For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Lev.11:44).​

Would the LORD demand that anyone be holy if that person does not have the ability to be holy? Of course not. If a man is to be holy then he must have the ability to choose to sin or not to sin.

This idea is denied by the Calvinists. The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​

A holy and righteous God would not demand man to be holy unless it is in a man’s ability to do so.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Side question: is it possible that while Adam was created in the likeness of God, we all are born in the likeness of [fallen] Adam (Gen 5:3)?

By the time Adam and Eve had conceived they had both been given a divinely provided garment so they might be made fit for God's presence (Gen.3:21). I believe that both were in fellowship with the Lord before they had any descendants. And it also appears that the LORD had respect for one of their offspring, Abel (Gen.4:5). And He had no respect for Cain because of Cain's own actions, not because that somehow Adam's sin had been imputed to him.
 

Danoh

New member
Adam had free will. He exercised it poorly that day.

The issue throughout Scripture as to man's stumbling is ever the same - his failure to exercise his free will and simply take God at His Word.

In Adam's case, however, by his own failure in that, that day, all were made sinners.

His transgression that day, a kind of a baptism into the spiritual death of transgression; a spiritual union with, an identification with trangression that day.

Something in him changed with that.

Something which, as with that change in a parent that results, say, in a crack or an HIV baby, could not but be passed on to Adam's offspring.

The result being that although sin is not imputed where there is no law, there is still this issue of this nature man is born with that is corrupt.

And corruption can not inherit incorruption.

Baby's and toddlers are not held to account because they do not know how to discern right from wrong.

Thus, they are cleansed from that based on their ignorance, not on their supposed innocence.

Numbers 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

Which is really the greater issue determining that one - the greater issue in the case of babies and toddlers - of their not knowing to discern between things that differ.

Sort of like how the Son had been able to pray the Father forgive Israel's not having been able to discern the difference in things that differ such that they had not been able to discern the time of their visitation (though punished they would be for it, upon their being made aware of their having been ignorant, only to reject said awareness).

Til then, His murder, overturned by the Father to a charge of manslaughter, and an OFFER of pardon (And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers...Repent ye therefore...Acts 3:17, 19).

Result being that man has to be made conscience that he has a kind of an AIDS in him.

Which, as with the child born to Alcoholic parents, is basically dormant within that child...until it is set off by context and circumstances similar to those which in its' Alcoholic Parents, sets off their compulsion.

Said offspring going about its' merry way, ignorant of this dormant nature within it...til the right context and or circumstances, set it off.

I had not known (been aware of dormant, indwelling) sin (within me), but by the law...But when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

"I'm sorry, there is nothing we can do...He was born an alcoholic; it's a part of his very genetic makeup; he will struggle with that his entire life.

Does not have to be our predicament though...

Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

That is then.

This is now.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Made Him to BE SIN for us.

Uh oh...

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
 

musterion

Well-known member
By the time Adam and Eve had conceived they had both been given a divinely provided garment so they might be made fit for God's presence (Gen.3:21). I believe that both were in fellowship with the Lord before they had any descendants. And it also appears that the LORD had respect for one of their offspring, Abel (Gen.4:5). And He had no respect for Cain because of Cain's own actions, not because that somehow Adam's sin had been imputed to him.

The point I was making was about where sin comes from; more specifically, that perhaps our race no longer reflects the intended image/likeness of God, but Adam's, which is why we sin and are counted with him if we're not counted in Christ. Just a thought.
 

dodge

New member
By the time Adam and Eve had conceived they had both been given a divinely provided garment so they might be made fit for God's presence (Gen.3:21). I believe that both were in fellowship with the Lord before they had any descendants. And it also appears that the LORD had respect for one of their offspring, Abel (Gen.4:5). And He had no respect for Cain because of Cain's own actions, not because that somehow Adam's sin had been imputed to him.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

When we look at the context we can that the "death" and "life" in view is in regard to "physical" death and life because here Paul is speaking about the resuurection of the body:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"
(1 Cor.15:22).​

In what way was Adam responsible for bringing "physical" death to mankind? Both he and Eve were created with mortal bodies and as long as they continued to eat of the Tree of Life they would not die physcially. But once they were expelled from the Garden of Eden no one was able to partake of that Tree which was designed to keep their mortal bodies alive:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life"
(Gen.3:22-24).​

Since then it has been man's destiny to die physically:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
(Heb.9:27).​
 
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