ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[Jerry Shugart]

The point I was making was about where sin comes from; more specifically, that perhaps our race no longer reflects the intended image/likeness of God, but Adam's, which is why we sin and are counted with him if we're not counted in Christ. Just a thought.

Man has a free will and by his conscience he knows what is wrong and what isn't. Nothing forces him to sin and when he sins he does it because he exercises his free will. There is nothing inherit in man which is somehow a force in him that accounts for why he sins. at some point all men decide on their own to go their own way instead of God's way. That is the peril which results in a man having free will.

Even after being made spiritually alive he still continues to sin. How do you explain that?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

...and simply take God at His Word.

The "will" plays no part in believing God. What a man believes is based on the "evidence" which is at his disposal. You have the evidence that five and five equals ten and no matter how much you might try to will yourself to believe that five and five equals something other than ten you will find that it is impossible. Our "will" plays no part in our salvation.

We are saved when we believe the evidence of things not seen:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

 

[musterion]

Even after being made spiritually alive he still continues to sin. How do you explain that?

Same way Paul did. The old man; the flesh; sin dwelling in the members.

 

[dodge]

Jerry Shugart;4982180]When we look at the context we can that the "death" and "life" in view is in regard to "physical" death and life because here Paul is speaking about the resuurection of the body:

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Are all made alive in Christ only physically ? NOPE , they are also made alive "spiritually" !

Do all die in Adam only physically ? NOPE, they are also born in Adam with the need to be RE-BORN spiritually as Jesus taught Nicodemus.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Are all made alive in Christ only physically ? NOPE , they are also made alive "spiritually" !

There is absolutely no evidence that the verse is speaking of vanything other than physical death and the resurrection from the dead. You are reading into the verse something which is not found in that verse.

Besides that, in my OP on this thread I explained how all men die spiritually as a result of Adam's sin. And it is not because Adam's sin or death in sin has been imputed to all of his descendants.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Same way Paul did. The old man; the flesh; sin dwelling in the members.

Yes, but that did not happen until after he sinned. Before he sinned there was no sin dwelling in the members. As he said, before he sinned he was alive:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).​

Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes, "As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).

 

[dodge]

There is absolutely no evidence that the verse is speaking of vanything other than physical death and the resurrection from the dead. You are reading into the verse something which is not found in that verse.

Besides that, in my OP on this thread I explained how all men die spiritually as a result of Adam's sin. And it is not because Adam's sin or death in sin has been imputed to all of his descendants.

The same reasoning can be used to say the verse does NOT say physical death YOU are just reading physical death into the verse something that is not found in that verse. I believe it speaks to both !

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE in the verse to suggest ONLY physical death. We KNOW that Jesus saves both physically ( glorified resurrected body ) and SPIRITUALLY (born again ). When held in comparison in the same verse to Jesus OBVIOUSLY "all die" in Adam is both physically and spiritually.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Originally Posted by glorydaz
Why did Adam sin if it wasn't in his nature to do so? That's what you can't explain away.

Adam did what we all do....disobey God. He didn't pass down a thing God didn't create him with.

I'm with yuh on this.

Reason why it can't be explained away is that Jesus Christ was the only begotten son.

 

[musterion]

Yes, but that did not happen until after he sinned. Before he sinned there was no sin dwelling in the members.

Uh...Jerry...you asked me,

Even AFTER being made spiritually alive he STILL continues to sin. How do you explain that?

Are you okay?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The same reasoning can be used to say the verse does NOT say physical death YOU are just reading physical death into the verse something that is not found in that verse.

Som the resurrection has nothing to do with physical death?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you okay?

What's your point?

 

[dodge]

Som the resurrection has nothing to do with physical death?

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE in the verse to suggest ONLY physical death. We KNOW that Jesus saves both physically ( glorified resurrected body ) and SPIRITUALLY (born again ). When held in comparison in the same verse to Jesus OBVIOUSLY "all die" in Adam is both physically and spiritually.

 

[musterion]

What's your point?

Nothing.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE in the verse to suggest ONLY physical death. We KNOW that Jesus saves both physically ( glorified resurrected body ) and SPIRITUALLY (born again ). When held in comparison in the same verse to Jesus OBVIOUSLY "all die" in Adam is both physically and spiritually.

If you are right then that still does not help you. I have already explained how all die spiritually because of Adam's sin in my OP on this thread. It was not because Adam's sin or his death in sin was imputed to all of his descendants. You have not addressed that.

Let me ask you a simple question. What "death" is bbeing referred to in "bold" in the following verse?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

 

[dodge]

If you are right then that still does not help you. I have already explained how all die spiritually because of Adam's sin in my OP on this thread. It was not because Adam's sin or his death in sin was imputed to all of his descendants. You have not addressed that.

Let me ask you a simple question. What "death" is bbeing referred to in "bold" in the following verse?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Physical and spiritual death !

Rom 5:18
¶
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.



Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Tambora]

Where does scripture tell us that Adam was made spiritually alive?
And where does scripture tell us that Adam died spiritually?
And where does scripture tell us that Adam was made spiritually alive again after he fell, or was Adam just a sunk ship?

 

[glorydaz]

Side question: is it possible that while Adam was created in the likeness of God, we all are born in the likeness of [fallen] Adam (Gen 5:3)?

If that was the case, why did Adam sin just like we all do?

 

[musterion]

He chose to.

 

[glorydaz]

No sir.

He had the ability to do right.
He chose not to.

It is us who do not have the ability to do right until we are born again.

Why do you think God told Cain what He did here, if Cain was not able to do well?

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

 

[glorydaz]

He chose to.

Yes, just as we do. Exactly as we do, as a matter of fact.