ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[Jerry Shugart]

Nope, YOU are in denial of what Jesus taught in more places than one.

Let us start over and examine what is said here in "bold" about spiritual death:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Here we can see that "all men" die spiritually when they sin. And in order for "all men" to die spiritually then "all men" must have previously been alive spiritually.

That can only mean that "all men" have been alive spiritually at one time or another. Can you say anything which refutes that?

 

[dodge]

It's a lie that man has no ability to choose. We have the exact same ability to choose as Adam had. He chose wrongly, just as we do. Why? Because having been created in a body of flesh, with a free will, we are susceptible to lusts of the flesh, eyes, and pride of life. God gave Adam one simple command, and he couldn't obey it. Why you keep insisting he could choose while we can't is just plain ridiculous.





That makes no sense whatsoever. Adam sinned while in the image of God. We sin while in the image of God. Adam was made in the image of God....he could reason (unlike the animals), he was relational (capable of having a loving relationship), he could make choice, not based on instinct but based on facts and desires. Man could never have the same NATURE (divine) as God has, so being made in God's image has nothing to do with some "sin nature".



Clearly not for someone who has been so indoctrinated they can't even consider proofs to the contrary. God told Noah man was made in the image of God, and our Lord, himself, was made in the likeness of man.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:​

YOU have no PROOFS to the contrary just your opinion.

The verse you quoted proves nothing as Jesus was BORN sinless just like Adam and based on your opinion Jesus would have sinned and He didn't.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Only 2 men were ever born without sin Adam and Jesus the first man chose to disobey God the second man chose NOT TO proving that Adam did NOT have to disobey God.

 

[dodge]

Let us start over and examine what is said here in "bold" about spiritual death:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Here we can see that "all men" die spiritually when they sin. And in order for "all men" to die spiritually then "all men" must have previously been alive spiritually.

That can only mean that "all men" have been alive spiritually at one time or another. Can you say anything which refutes that?

The verse does NOT mean what you are trying to force it to mean. Everyone is not born neutral they are born spiritually dead and heading for a physical death if the Lord Jesus tarries.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Now do you have a verse that contradicts that in Adam ALL men die ?

 

[Danoh]

You disregard the warnings of Christ and His Apostles who all preached the same thing.

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.





You send me to hell quite often in your supposed "love".








You lie about what Christ and His Apostles taught, and about me again.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?






Christ taught the royal law of God, not the OT covenant, which you claim.

again you try to justify your disobedience of the words of Christ and His Apostles.--

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

LA

From where I look at things...Granted, you note a distinction in things the MADist does not; just as the MADist notes a distinction in things you do not.

I myself note things as a MADist that others as MADists do not; and vice-versa.

And when there are two sides; both can't be right.

May not make one or the other a liar, but a lie one side is holding to.

Again, that does not make one a liar.

A liar would be one who is knowingly up to the no good of lying.

Thus far, as to these issues, I find no liars on either side, not as far as what each appears to be understanding about one thing or another.

You might find a liar in all that.

Others might.

I do not.

The MAD I hold to does not.

I will not bring myself under the power of any as to what these different understandings say about their holder, other than that we each obviously study things differently.

Charity believeth...all things.

I say this, Lazy, well aware of your own tendency for your own high-horse towards anyone who does not hold your views.

It might be best you develop a sense of humor...about yourself

 

[dodge]

Tambora;4982561]And yet that says nothing about Adam being spiritually alive or dead.

YOU are ignoring that AFTER Adam disobeyed God something changed immediately. Before the disobedience neither Adam nor Eve knew they were naked, and immediately after Adam disobeyed God they both KNEW and were ashamed of their nakedness.

lol, you believe God created man spiritually dead.

And yet that says nothing about Adam being spiritually alive or dead.

There was an immediate change in Adam and Eve then the curses from God followed. Figure it out. Have you ever read Genesis 3 ?

Not only does that not mention blood at all, but it also says nothing about Adam being spiritually alive or dead.

Got ya, God took the skins of animals and clothed Adam and Eve and the animals whose skins were used to clothe them was not affected ?

Not one word in all that that tells us Adam was spiritually alive or dead.

Sure it does YOU just do not have the eyes to see it, sadly.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The verse does NOT mean what you are trying to force it to mean. Everyone is not born neutral they are born spiritually dead and heading for a physical death if the Lord Jesus tarries.

Why do you refuse to address what I said in an intelligent way? I will go step by step and when I make a mistake then tell exactly what I said that is in error:

Let us start over and examine what is said here in "bold" about spiritual death:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Here we can see that "all men" die spiritually when they sin.​

Do you agree with that?

And in order for "all men" to die spiritually then "all men" must have previously been alive spiritually.​

Do you agree with that?

That can only mean that "all men" have been alive spiritually at one time or another.​

Can you refute that?

 

[glorydaz]

Here is a scripture to PROVE what I believe ! Do you have any scripture to PROVE what you believe ?

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ha, that does NOT prove what you believe. It proves you believe the indoctrination about that verse. Read it in context and you'll find out you're being duped. Paul is comparing the body dying with the body being resurrected from the dead.

1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.​

It has nothing to do with sin. Paul is talking about physical death (death of the body), and a physical resurrection (which all men partake of).

Acts 24:15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.​

You should be able to figure that out, because not all men are IN CHRIST in the way you're trying to claim. If people bothered to read all these "proof texts" they'd realize they are NOT saying what some claim.

 

[glorydaz]

YOU have no PROOFS to the contrary just your opinion.

The verse you quoted proves nothing as Jesus was BORN sinless just like Adam and based on your opinion Jesus would have sinned and He didn't.

Jesus was born sinless just like Adam and just like us.

Only 2 men were ever born without sin Adam and Jesus the first man chose to disobey God the second man chose NOT TO proving that Adam did NOT have to disobey God.

Actually, you just proved your own opinion is faulty. The first Adam chose to disobey God as the rest of us do, and the Last Adam resisted sin, even though He was created in the likeness of man...of the very seed of David according to the flesh.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

[dodge]

glorydaz;4982615]Ha, that does NOT prove what you believe. It proves you believe the indoctrination about that verse. Read it in context and you'll find out you're being duped. Paul is comparing the body dying with the body being resurrected from the dead.

You can ignore, divert, infer or whatever you want the verse says what it says "in Adam all die and "in Christ all men live".

1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.​

Yep, they died in Adam and are made alive in Jesus.

It has nothing to do with sin. Paul is talking about physical death (death of the body), and a physical resurrection (which all men partake of).

When sin conceives it brings forth "death" sin was conceived when Adam disobeyed God. Figure it out.

Acts 24:15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.​

Your point ? All are resurrected some to eternal life and some to eternal death i.e. separation from God.

You should be able to figure that out, because not all men are IN CHRIST in the way you're trying to claim. If people bothered to read all these "proof texts" they'd realize they are NOT saying what some claim.

Those who are born again are raised to eternal life in God , and those who are resurrected and have not trusted Jesus are raised to eternal condemnation. You should be able to figure that out.

 

[dodge]

glorydaz;4982624]Jesus was born sinless just like Adam and just like us.

Not even close "in Adam all DIE "

Actually, you just proved your own opinion is faulty. The first Adam chose to disobey God as the rest of us do, and the Last Adam resisted sin, even though He was created in the likeness of man...of the very seed of David according to the flesh.

Nope, YOU missed the point ! Adam did not have to disobey God he chose to thereby bringing death to all men, and UN-like mankind that is born with a sin nature.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Jesus was born in the flesh BUT without a sin nature just like Adam.

 

[glorydaz]

It is there you just cannot see it.

And God prepared clothes of animal skin for Adam and Eve.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.

God took care of Adam and Eve's disobedience. COMPARE the offerings of Cain and Able.

Cain's offering was bloodless=rejected by God

Able's offering blood was shed= God accepted Able's offering.

Why should I bring that up when it has nothing to do with sin being passed down through Adam?

 

[dodge]

Jerry Shugart;4982614]Why do you refuse to address what I said in an intelligent way? I will go step by step and when I make a mistake then tell exactly what I said that is in error:

​

Jerry you are looking at that verse from a really distorted understanding or lack thereof of the verse.

Let us start over and examine what is said here in "bold" about spiritual death:

OK, understanding that the verse speaks to both physical and spiritual death.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

I believe where you are going off the path is the verse speaks to being born spiritually dead as opposed to a person committing a sin and then becoming spirituality dead. Jerry , a person cannot lose what they never had.

Here we can see that "all men" die spiritually when they sin.

Do you agree with that?

NO, men are born spiritually dead.

We received both spiritual and physical from the federal head of mankind which was Adam just as we receive forgiveness and salvation from the 2nd Adam Jesus as our federal head.

And in order for "all men" to die spiritually then "all men" must have previously been alive spiritually.​

Do you agree with that?

NO !

Pray and seek God's leadership and wisdom. How can a dead man die ? That is what you are missing.

You will never see the truth of that verse until you see that the ALL men are sinners in Adam and born spiritually dead.

That can only mean that "all men" have been alive spiritually at one time or another.​

Can you refute that?

Yes ,"IN ADAM ALL DIE" Adam represents mankind as the federal head so "all" are born spiritually dead they were NEVER alive spiritually.

 

[Danoh]

Why do you refuse to address what I said in an intelligent way? I will go step by step and when I make a mistake then tell exactly what I said that is in error:

Let us start over and examine what is said here in "bold" about spiritual death:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Here we can see that "all men" die spiritually when they sin.​

Do you agree with that?

And in order for "all men" to die spiritually then "all men" must have previously been alive spiritually.​

Do you agree with that?

That can only mean that "all men" have been alive spiritually at one time or another.​

Can you refute that?

You forget Jerry, that Romans 5 is addressed to already saved people - members of the Body of Christ at Rome.

That per Romans 15, he was basically reminding them, here in Romans 5, of their PRESENT reality - their ability to reign in life over sin SPIRITUALLY, by virtue of the fact that they HAVE eternal SPIRITUAL life.

By virtue of the FACT that THEY are NO LONGER in Adam.

As he will also remind them in...

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

He is talking about what our eternal SPIRITUAL life enables in us IN THIS LIFE that we did NOT have IN ADAM.

This passage is talking about SPIRITUAL death....

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And so death passed upon ALL men, for that all HAVE sinned.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

He is CONTRASTING the SPIRITUAL INABILITY to REIGN over sin we are all born with IN ADAM, with the SPIRITUAL ENABLEMENT to REIGN OVER sin, by virtue of the FACT that we NOW HAVE eternal SPIRITUAL life.

In fact, NEWNESS of SPIRITUAL life.

I forget who recently posted they "can't wait to start eternity."

Well, the Apostle Paul is saying that has ALREADY BEGUN in the Saint - Amen!

NOW we are not only SPIRITUALLY dead to sin, but SPIRITUALLY alive from the dead.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 

[glorydaz]

Not even close "in Adam all DIE "

That verse is talking about physical death, as I already explained. Did you even bother to read it in context? opcorn:

Nope, YOU missed the point ! Adam did not have to disobey God he chose to thereby bringing death to all men, and UN-like mankind that is born with a sin nature.



Jesus was born in the flesh BUT without a sin nature just like Adam.

It never ceases to amaze me what gyrations you are willing to go through.

Of course Adam did not have to disobey God, he made a bad decision, exactly like we all do when we're faced with temptations we aren't willing to resist. If we have to disobey, as you claim, then man would have a good excuse for sinning, and God plainly tells us we have none. Why do you argue with God?

Man is not only able to obey, he is told by God to "choose" whom to serve.

Joshua 24:15KJV
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.​

Clearly, there is a time before a child knows to choose good over evil, and just as clearly, he is able to after reaching the age of being able to choose. I haven't yet seen you address verses like this one. Will you ignore it as you have so many others? :think:

Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.​

 

[glorydaz]

Why do you refuse to address what I said in an intelligent way?

I'll tell you, Jerry. He's a robot just like God's Untruth. You may as well be talking to a stump of wood.

 

[dodge]

That verse is talking about physical death, as I already explained. Did you even bother to read it in context? opcorn:



It never ceases to amaze me what gyrations you are willing to go through.

Of course Adam did not have to disobey God, he made a bad decision, exactly like we all do when we're faced with temptations we aren't willing to resist. If we have to disobey, as you claim, then man would have a good excuse for sinning, and God plainly tells us we have none. Why do you argue with God?

Man is not only able to obey, he is told by God to "choose" whom to serve.

Joshua 24:15KJV
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.​

Clearly, there is a time before a child knows to choose good over evil, and just as clearly, he is able to after reaching the age of being able to choose. I haven't yet seen you address verses like this one. Will you ignore it as you have so many others? :think:

Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.​

I see over and over people cannot receive understanding they have to change and rationalize scripture ,out of context, to stay in error. Your loss not mine.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You forget Jerry, that Romans 5 is addressed to already saved people - members of the Body of Christ at Rome.

The words which I quoted are in regard to "all men" and not just believers:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Are you arguing that the words "all men" are only speaking about saved people?

 

[George Affleck]

Pretty sure he wasn't.

 

[Danoh]

The words which I quoted are in regard to "all men" and not just believers:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Are you arguing that the words "all men" are only speaking about saved people?

He is talking about the "all men" that the Romans WERE a part of.

And his intent is using that fact as a means by which to HIGHLIGHT the FACT of WHY they NO LONGER ARE of such.

Towards what intent is he doing that?

Towards REMINDING THEM of HOW grace WORKS, is ENABLED, or TAPPED INTO by members of the Body of Christ.

By focusing ON the love OF Christ shed abroad in OUR HEARTS AT the Cross.

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[glorydaz]

I see over and over people cannot receive what they have to change and rationalize in scripture ,out of context, to stay in error. Your loss not mine.

No, it's your loss because you don't see Paul is talking about a bodily death and a bodily resurrection in that text. Dying physically is why we're said to be IN ADAM, and resurrecting bodily is why we're said to be IN CHRIST. All men die and all men will be raised from the dead.

You keep insisting it's discussing sin. But, since you are clearly afraid to read the text then I'll leave you to your stubbornness. You can lead a horse to water, but......