ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[dodge]

No, it's your loss because you don't see Paul is talking about a bodily death and a bodily resurrection in that text. Dying physically is why we're said to be IN ADAM, and resurrecting bodily is why we're said to be IN CHRIST. All men die and all men will be raised from the dead.

You keep insisting it's discussing sin. But, since you are clearly afraid to read the text then I'll leave you to your stubbornness. You can lead a horse to water, but......

Sure I see it you don't understand that the death is both physical and spiritual.

lol, as you whinny at the moon.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe where you are going off the path is the verse speaks to being born spiritually dead as opposed to a person committing a sin and then becoming spirituality dead. Jerry , a person cannot lose what they never had.

Let us look at the verse again:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

It is impossible that this verse is speaking about people born spiritually dead, as you imagine. Instead, Paul makes it plain that men become spiritually dead when they sin. Your mind is playing tricks on you if you think Paul is saying that all men being born spiritually dead. Here is another translation and again it says that all men die because all men sin:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—" (Ro.5:12; NIV).​

I can count eight other translations which also use the word "because." The meaning could not be any clearer--that spiritual death came to "all people" BECAUSE all sinned. in order for all people to die spiritually then "all people" must have previously been alive spiritually.

But since you have no place for that happening in your theology you are forced to put a foreign meaning on Romans 5:12 and the meaning which you put on it is laughable. All you prove is that you are willing to defend what some men say about the Scriptures at the expense of what the Scriptures actually say.

You will never see the truth of that verse until you see that the ALL men are sinners in Adam and born spiritually dead.

You will never see the truth that is revealed at Romans 5:12 until you cease from perverting the plain meaning of that verse.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He is talking about the "all men" that the Romans WERE.

So are you saying that the words "all men" are just speaking about "some men"?

 

[glorydaz]

Sure I see it you don't understand that the death is both physical and spiritual.

Okay, you say the death, spoken of here, is both physical and spiritual. If that's true, then you're claiming there is universal salvation, because "all" shall be "made alive" SPIRITUALLY.

1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

The only way this text works is if it's speaking of a bodily death and a bodily resurrection, and lo and behold when you read the context, you'll see that's the case.

 

[glorydaz]

Jump to 1:20.

That's horrible. Incredible what man can come up with when he first begins his vain imaginings. :nono:

 

[Danoh]

So are you saying that the words "all men" are just speaking about "some men"?

Nope.

And a ribbing...

Some in agreement with you on this issue, have yet to figure out that Paul was speaking to members of the Body of Christ.

Others not in agreement with you on this issue, but who also have yet to figure out that Paul was talking to members of the Body of Christ, fail to see their inconsistency.

You are basically alone in your position, bro

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Some in agreement with you on this issue, have yet to figure out that Paul was speaking to members of the Body of Christ.

Those who agree with me understand that the words "all men" in this verse is speaking of all men:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Just because this verse is found in an epistle which is addressed to those in the Body of Christ does not mean that the words "all men" are not referring to all men in a universal sense.

I don't even know why you even said anything about the words found at Romans 5:12 being addressed to believers. What is your point?

 

[glorydaz]

Those who agree with me understand that the words "all men" in this verse is speaking of all men:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Just because this verse is found in an epistle which is addressed to those in the Body of Christ does not mean that the words "all men" are not referring to all men in a universal sense.

I don't even know why you even said anything about the words found at Romans 5:12 being addressed to believers. What is your point?

His point is to cause dissension. Haven't you noticed? Suddenly he's agreeing with Nang etal. :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

Those who agree with me understand that the words "all men" in this verse is speaking of all men:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Just because this verse is found in an epistle which is addressed to those in the Body of Christ does not mean that the words "all men" are not referring to all men in a universal sense.

I don't even know why you even said anything about the words found at Romans 5:12 being addressed to believers. What is your point?

That all HAVE sinned.

In CONTRAST, YOU are ADDING the qualifier that it is referring to WHEN they sin.

Paul's point in is that All ARE SPIRITUALLY dead.

The lost have no spiritual EMPOWERMENT.

Their body houses a "body of this death" that resides IN them - "NO - GOOD THING IN" them.

None.

 

[glorydaz]

Just because this verse is found in an epistle which is addressed to those in the Body of Christ does not mean that the words "all men" are not referring to all men in a universal sense.

Maybe only many of the believers were made sinners, and only many of the believers will be made righteous. :think:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That all HAVE sinned.

In CONTRAST, YOU are ADDING the qualifier that it is referring to WHEN they sin.

Paul's point in is that All ARE SPIRITUALLY dead.

Yes, "all men" die spiritually when they sin. And in order for "all men" to die spiritually when they sin those same men must be alive spiritually before they sin. So at one time or another "all men" were alive spiritually.

That can only mean that no one is born spiritually dead.

 

[Nang]

If that was the case, why did Adam sin just like we all do?

He didn't. Romans 5:14

Our sins are different than Adam's sin, in that we are not the federal head and representative of the human race, like Adam.

His original sin caused guilt and a death sentence to be imposed upon all his progeny ( as a type of the last "Adam" Jesus Christ) whose obedience unto death, as federal head of His church, caused His righteousness to be imputed to all His spiritual progeny. .

 

[Nang]

yes and one that is easily disproven by scripture.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Deuteronomy 24:16
"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.


Which proves we dont bear the guilt of adam. What we bear from adam on is the repercussions of sin being in the world. (its fallen state due to sin compounding)

Example, how a child could bear a lifetime condition because of its mother doing drugs during pregnancy.

The mothers sins, visits the child, but the child is not held responsible (guilt) for the mothers sins.

The ONLY reason our sons do not inherit our sins, is because we are not commissioned by God to be their representatives. Adam and Jesus Christ are the only two Federal Heads ordained by God: Adam to act for the entire human race and Jesus Christ to act for His church.

 

[Nang]

Quote just one in the MAD camp who says that we are not to obey God.

John W

 

[Nang]

Paul commands obedience to Christ. I've never met a MAD who denies that in any way.

John W

 

[Danoh]

Yes, "all men" die spiritually when they sin. And in order for "all men" to die spiritually when they sin those same men must be alive spiritually before they sin. So at one time or another "all men" were alive spiritually.

That can only mean that no one is born spiritually dead.

That can mean that within the vacuum you are looking at this from.

But being Greeking the text often appears to be your preferred route - have you considered "Greeking" words like "many" there, in Romans 5 - as to the various aspects of the grammar: case, tense, mood, and so on?

 

[Nang]

Yes, "all men" die spiritually when they sin. And in order for "all men" to die spiritually when they sin those same men must be alive spiritually before they sin. So at one time or another "all men" were alive spiritually.

That can only mean that no one is born spiritually dead.

Say it one more time, Jerry!

It will still not be true.

Adam was created a living being, made of dust, earthly . . But he was not indwelt with the Holy Spirit like the sons of God.

 

[Nang]

Jerry,

The ONLY reason our sons do not inherit our sins, is because we are not commissioned by God to be their representatives. Our children bear their own guilt for their sins, just as each and every one of us bear our own guilt for our sins.

However all men bear the guilt of Adam, because he represented us as Federal Head when he sinned. My father was not ordained in such fashion and neither was I, but Adam was. Because Adam was a type of Jesus Christ, who was ordained by God, as Federal Head, to represent His church in righteousness.

How come you continuously ask the same (wrong) questions, but never seem to comprehend, or even acknowledge, those who answer you?

Do you just want attention?


Adam and Jesus Christ are the only two Federal Heads ordained by God: Adam to act for the entire human race and Jesus Christ to act for His church. Thus, the original sin of Adam triggered the death sentence upon all men. And the obedience of Christ alone provides everlasting life.

 

[glorydaz]

He didn't. Romans 5:14

Our sins are different than Adam's sin, in that we are not the federal head and representative of the human race, like Adam.

His original sin caused guilt and a death sentence to be imposed upon all his progeny ( as a type of the last "Adam" Jesus Christ) whose obedience unto death, as federal head of His church, caused His righteousness to be imputed to all His spiritual progeny. .

I notice you have no verse that supports that premise.

The type Paul is referring to is further explained here in 1 Cor. 15. The first Adam was earthly, and we bear his image as earthly (a body of flesh). We will bear the image of the heavenly when we die and are resurrected (spiritual body). Death reigned even over those who had not sinned like Adam. So your efforts to turn this into Adam having a sin nature are proven wrong here.

1 Cor. 15:44-50 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.​

You can't claim sin and righteousness as the type because righteousness only comes upon all them that believe.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:​

 

[glorydaz]

Adam and Jesus Christ are the only two Federal Heads ordained by God: Adam to act for the entire human race and Jesus Christ to act for His church. Thus, the original sin of Adam triggered the death sentence upon all men. And the obedience of Christ alone provides everlasting life.

Oh, so Adam was a more effective Federal Head than Christ was? Adam made everyone a sinner and Christ only provides everlasting life to those who believe. That's lame.