ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[Tambora]

Behaving as ugly as some do towards any one who does not agree with one is as much denial of the need to obey Christ as actually asserting one does not need to.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

opcorn:

 

[Tambora]

OK you believe God created Adam spiritually dead ?

Nope.

Wrong again ! You IGNORE the obvious.

What is it you think I'm ignoring?

Again: You believe God created Adam and Eve spirituall dead.

Again, nope.

If you take an animals skin from them they bleed and die biology 101.

Then list the animal that GOD killed and skinned?

BINGO ! They were brought back from spiritual death by an act of God.

Then their nature was a spiritually alive nature to pass on to their offspring, not a spiritually dead nature.
You cannot say that Adam and Eve passed their spiritually dead nature to their offspring, because they were not spiritually dead when they conceived and bore children.

Really ! So you believe when a born again couple have a child that the child receives their being born again from their parents. Can you please provide the scripture that supports that ?

Is is not you that has been arguing that Adam and Eve's "spiritually dead" nature was passed to their offspring?
How can they pass on a spiritually dead nature they did not posses when they conceived and bore children?
If Adam and Eve's nature was made spiritually alive when they were covered by GOD with skins, then the image of Adam his children were born into was spiritually alive when he bore children, not spiritually dead.

The image of Adam would be a forgiven, spiritually alive image, not a spiritually dead image when he bore his children.
So how is a nature of spiritual deadness passed from parents with a nature that is spiritually alive?

How can one be born AGAIN spiritually if they never were alive spiritually to begin with?

Your premise that Adam's image of his spiritual deadness being passed to his offspring is not adding up for the simple fact that Adam did not have a spiritually dead nature when he conceived and bore children. He conceived and bore children in a state of being spiritually alive, not a state of being spiritually dead.

 

[dodge]

Tambora;4982981]Nope.

What is it you think I'm ignoring?

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

Again, nope.

Then list the animal that GOD killed and skinned?

Gen 3:21
¶
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
I would believe God used lamb skin but that is just a guess.

Then their nature was a spiritually alive nature to pass on to their offspring, not a spiritually dead nature.
You cannot say that Adam and Eve passed their spiritually dead nature to their offspring, because they were not spiritually dead when they conceived and bore children.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Is is not you that has been arguing that Adam and Eve's "spiritually dead" nature was passed to their offspring?
How can they pass on a spiritually dead nature they did not posses when they conceived and bore children?
If Adam and Eve's nature was made spiritually alive when they were covered by GOD with skins, then the image of Adam his children were born into was spiritually alive when he bore children, not spiritually dead.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The image of Adam would be a forgiven, spiritually alive image, not a spiritually dead image when he bore his children.
So how is a nature of spiritual deadness passed from parents with a nature that is spiritually alive?

How can one be born AGAIN spiritually if they never were alive spiritually to begin with?

Your premise that Adam's image of his spiritual deadness being passed to his offspring is not adding up for the simple fact that Adam did not have a spiritually dead nature when he conceived and bore children. He conceived and bore children in a state of being spiritually alive, not a state of being spiritually dead.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

When we examine this verse we must first understanding the signifiance of the words "in Adam" and "in Christ."

First, the verse says that "in Christ" all shall be made alive. Not all men are "in Christ" but only those who believe. So in order to be "In Christ" a person must do something and that thing is to believe.

In order to understand what is meant with the words "in Adam" we must maintain a logical consistency and understand that one must likewise do something to be "in Adam." And that thing is to sin. So since "all men" sin and die spiritually as a result of their sin then all die.

And that interpretation is consistent with what Paul says in this verse:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5;12).​

Here we can see that "all men" die spiritually when they sin. That means that "all men" were alive spiritually prior to the time when they sinned.

Therefore, we can understand that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

 

[dodge]

When we examine this verse we must first understanding the signifiance of the words "in Adam" and "in Christ."

First, the verse says that "in Christ" all shall be made alive. Not all men are "in Christ" but only those who believe. So in order to be "In Christ" a person must do something and that thing is to believe.

In order to understand what is meant with the words "in Adam" we must maintain a logical consistency and understand that one must likewise do something to be "in Adam." And that thing is to sin. So since "all men" sin and die spiritually as a result of their sin then all die.

And that interpretation is consistent with what Paul says in this verse:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5;12).​

Here we can see that "all men" die spiritually when they sin. That means that "all men" were alive spiritually prior to the time when they sinned.

Therefore, we can understand that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

Scripture says YOU are wrong:


Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

JAMES 1:14-15

14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away after his own lust,and enticed.

15 Then when lust has conceived it brings forth sin,and sin when it is finished,brings forth death.


Sin comes from within man, it can be a reaction from what is outside a person or just what a person is thinking. John tells us we have an enemy on three fronts the world (which is fallen and under sin and the devils control) the flesh (which carries the sin nature) the devil (a personal angel that is sinful and influences mankind to love sin). Sin has its roots in the heart that influences the intellect and will and ultimately finds its expression through the body when we follow though with the desire (Prov.4:3; Mt.15:19-20; Lk.6:45; Heb.3:12 ; Jm1:14-15. The sin nature is the basis for sinful habits, it is not a single act but a process that begins in our heart. You can say the real source of mans problem is heart disease, our fallen human nature.
Jer. 17:9: "the heart is deceitfully wicked, ( incurably sick). Jesus taught that sin begins within us. Matt 15:18-19 Jesus said, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.”

http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp120.htm

Paul says it was our "nature" and YOU say it is not. I will stay with what scripture teaches.

 

[glorydaz]

I have not claimed that Adam was created spiritually dead.
You do the same with me that you do with scripture ---- read something into it that is not there.

OK you believe God created Adam spiritually dead ? That is where that kind of nonsense leads.

Again: You believe God created Adam and Eve spiritually dead. Do you have scripture to support that assumption ?


Really ! So you believe when a born again couple have a child that the child receives their being born again from their parents and themselves are born again based on what their parents did ? Can you please provide the scripture that supports that.

Clearly we have another God's UNtruth here with poster Dodge. Both are aptly named. :chuckle:

It doesn't matter what someone says, they hear what they want to hear. Like I said, it's like talking to a stump.:loser:

 

[glorydaz]

Say it one more time, Jerry!

It will still not be true.

Adam was created a living being, made of dust, earthly . . But he was not indwelt with the Holy Spirit like the sons of God.

So, those OT saints were spiritually dead because the Comforter had not yet come and indwelt believers?

 

[dodge]

Clearly we have another God's UNtruth here with poster Dodge. Both are aptly named. :chuckle:

It doesn't matter what someone says, they hear what they want to hear. Like I said, it's like talking to a stump.:loser:

You just cannot deal with that I do not follow the retarded way MADist ignore the scripture that is right in front of their eyes, which they cannot understand because they pervert and take what they are reading totally out of context.

:deadhorse:

:wave:

 

[Right Divider]

You just cannot deal with that I do not follow the retarded way MADist ignore the scripture that is right in front of their eyes, which they cannot understand because they pervert and take what they are reading totally out of context.

:deadhorse:

:wave:

If you ever wake up, you'll be surprised to find out that you are wrong.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul says it was our "nature" and YOU say it is not. I will stay with what scripture teaches.

Your problem is the fact that you have no answer to what Paul wrote at Romans 5:12. So when you say that you are staying with what the Scriptures teach you are fooling no one but yourself.

You just assume that our nature doesn't change when we sin. But you fail to realize that our nature does not become corrupted until when we sin:

"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth" (Gen.6:12).​

The word "corrupted" means going from a state which is good to one which is bad. So when someone corrupts themselves by sinning they go from a good state to one which is bad. And if people come out of the womb already corrupted then it would be impossible for anyone to corrupt themselves by sinning.

 

[Danoh]

And yet they're full able to hear and believe the Gospel and be saved, if they choose to do so. We know this because God will condemn them if they won't; they ALREADY stand condemned, in fact.

As usual, you read into what I was talking about.

That the lost are unable to eradict the sin in them.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Dodge, just a note then I will go-

That's gonna blow a hole in your theory that Adam and Eve were spiritually dead when they had children, and thus passed on their spiritual deadness to their offspring.
Adam and Eve would have passed on a forgiven living nature to their children, not a spiritually dead unforgiven nature.

Cain was conceived/born while Adam and Eve were not reconciled to God.

According to Gods first creation law--

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Even Cain had opportunity to be reconciled to God but he refused it, whether permanently or not, I know not, but his offspring were born as he was.

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

very interesting,LA

 

[dodge]

Jerry Shugart;4983101]Your problem is the fact that you have no answer to what Paul wrote at Romans 5:12. So when you say that you are staying with what the Scriptures teach you are fooling no one but yourself.

I answered it it just did not fit your narrative, which you have taken totally out of context to support MAD.

You just assume that our nature doesn't change when we sin. But you fail to realize that our nature does not become corrupted until when we sin:

​

Jerry , all people are sinners not because they sin they sin because they are sinners.

"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth"

(Gen.6:12).

They started off corrupted "in Adam".

The word "corrupted" means going from a state which is good to one which is bad. So when someone corrupts themselves by sinning they go from a good state to one which is bad. And if people come out of the womb already corrupted then it would be impossible for anyone to corrupt themselves by sinning.

Paul says you are wrong:
Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath
, even as others.

Can you NOT see the word "nature" in that verse ?

 

[Danoh]

Why shouldn't I behave badly toward someone who insults my intelligence with her insane babblings?

Or perhaps you want to defend her idea that denies the fact that a person must first be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually?

Or perhaps you want to argue that the words "all men" only means "some men"?

I am glad to see that you have joined the politically correct police force!

I said that in general. Hah - how quickly you forget that when I address you or anyone else on one thing or another, I do not hold back

Speaking of which, that you'd thought I'd been addressing your behavior and from that conclusion have attempted to justify your mistreatment of anyone who does not agree with you; not only shows you are well aware of your mistreatment of anyone who does not agree with you, but you rationalize it.

Also obvious is the fact that GD is now basically asserting that you were right in your very poor treatment of her, way back when :chuckle:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Here we can see that "all men" die spiritually when they sin. That means that "all men" were alive spiritually prior to the time when they sinned.

Therefore, we can understand that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

False.

Even Christ had to be washed in water before He could begin His ministry with the Father being in Him.

The effect of sin was passed onto all men before they sinned at all.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Your problem is the fact that you have no answer to what Paul wrote at Romans 5:12. So when you say that you are staying with what the Scriptures teach you are fooling no one but yourself.

You just assume that our nature doesn't change when we sin. But you fail to realize that our nature does not become corrupted until when we sin:

"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth" (Gen.6:12).​

The word "corrupted" means going from a state which is good to one which is bad. So when someone corrupts themselves by sinning they go from a good state to one which is bad. And if people come out of the womb already corrupted then it would be impossible for anyone to corrupt themselves by sinning.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

[glorydaz]

You just cannot deal with that I do not follow the retarded way MADist ignore the scripture that is right in front of their eyes, which they cannot understand because they pervert and take what they are reading totally out of context.

:deadhorse:

:wave:

Nice try, but you fail. Tam told you more than once in the same post that she did not believe anyone was born spiritually dead, and you kept accusing her of saying it. It can't get any simpler than that. :chuckle:

 

[dodge]

Nice try, but you fail. Tam told you more than once in the same post that she did not believe anyone was born spiritually dead, and you kept accusing her of saying it. It can't get any simpler than that. :chuckle:

What Tam said at one point was she was not sure if they were spiritually alive....same difference.

 

[dodge]

Nice try, but you fail. Tam told you more than once in the same post that she did not believe anyone was born spiritually dead, and you kept accusing her of saying it. It can't get any simpler than that. :chuckle:

Fail ? I guess you also believe you can take the skin from an animal and turn their skin into clothes and the animal remains UN-harmed right ?

Fail ? Paul said when men sin they are following their nature.

Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Fail ? Scripture says plainly all men are dead in Adam.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

And no I am not a universalist, but that is a poor excuse to ignore the obvious.

Scripture says all men sin but it is without saying Jesus NEVER sinned as there is scripture to support that Jesus never sinned.

I believe the fail is in those in MAD supporting their beliefs by corrupting the context and meaning of the scripture.

 

[glorydaz]

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

Read the context. It will explain the verse you keep quoting, but you have to actually read what Paul wrote before you can know. The chapter is talking about dying (physically) and being raised from the dead. All men go to the grave, and all men will be raised from the dead (the just and the unjust). Death came by the first man (Adam), and the resurrection of the dead came by the Last Adam (Jesus Christ).

1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.​

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It's all about physical death and the resurrection of the body.

1 Cor. 15-12-16 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:​

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It's about the body (not inherited sin).

1 Cor. 15:44-45 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.​

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We bear the earthly image of the first man, and we will bear the heavenly image of the second man.

1 Cor. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

So, if you're going to keep quoting that verse, you should at least figure out it's meaning.