ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[God's Truth]

Agreed.



I think he was born with a conscience exactly as we are. The knowledge of good and evil is when we experience quilt from having sinned. That's the effect sin has on man's conscience. It's why children remain innocent until they experience quilt for having done wrong. "Oh, I feel guilty....that's because God created me with a conscience."

How about more like---I do not know God, not even though I am an infant and innocent, I still have to be taught about God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your theory does not explain why people will inevitably become sinners and for the fact that all men need a redeemer.

i take responsibility for my sins. At one point in my life I knew that what I wanted to do was sinful but I did it anyway. That was also true for Adam and there is no reason to supoose that he was created spiritually dead. At some point in all men's life they decide to go their own way instead of God's way.

Nothing you said proves that a person is not alive spiritually when he emerges from the womb. Let us look what Paul said in regard to his salvation:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated regenerartion "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renvation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When a person is born again of the spirit that means that he is restored back his pristine state of previously being born of the spirit. That means that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is still as a result of Adam's sin.

We do not die spiritually because Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to us. Instead, we die spiritually as a result of our own sin. And in order to die spritually as a result of our own sin we must first be alive spiritually. So no one is born dead spiritually

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God told Adam he would die "in the day you eat" of the forbidden tree.

Adam ate. Adam did not physically die.

Is God a liar?

No. Adam died that day for sure. Adam & Eve died spiritually and were uncovered with the shame of it.

You are wrongly teaching Romans 5:12-21 and you should cease from it.

I never denied that both Adam and Eve died spiritually as a result of their own sin. And you have said nothing which even hints that what I said about Romans 5:12-21 is in error.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I think he was born with a conscience exactly as we are. The knowledge of good and evil is when we experience quilt from having sinned.

If you are right then wouldn't we too have to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to experience guilt?

 

[Nang]

I never denied that both Adam and Eve died spiritually as a result of their own sin.

You are denying the doctrine of original sin by the way you interpret Romans 5:12-21

And you have said nothing which even hints that what I said about Romans 5:12-21 is in error.

Yes I have, by telling you to investigate traducianism in order to correct your view that the guilt of sin was not imputed to all Adam's seed.

It explains how all the offspring of Adam inherit his spiritual/physical corruption through procreation.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

So you deny the 1000 years are literal years?

Interesting . . .

It's funny how you twist peoples words so rapidly. If you thought my statement through, you would see that your accusation to Jerry is based on "instant gratification". God said we are in the "last days" upon His time on earth. Think this through. You are employing an argument that links instant results to Adam and Eve's actions.

The Spiritual closing of eyes that occurred is a symbol of "spiritual death" and it was expressed with the "opening of carnal eyes". But... Jerry has continually reaffirmed with scripture that "spiritual death" is the result of our sin. As Galatians states in a broad sweeping, theological overview way, and then in the way that is pertinent to our discussion here, which is specific to each individual... the Law is a Tutor, or personal guide... a "knowledge" so to speak. We do not become Spiritually dead/blind, until we transgress the Law.

Talk about Sovereignty... we all have autonomy to attempt to get the law right, but only One can "HIT the MARK".

Umpteen Billion beings have existed form Adam to now and only One could "get it right". We are born spiritually alive and when we become "accountable"... we are robbed of innocence by a world of "unbelief". Our first transgression of the Law and pang of "conscience" closes our Spiritual eyes.

Babies are born innocent! This is the deeper hint within the Garden account. Adam and Eve were like children and a malevolent force thrust their (Is. 14:14) upon us via (Gen. 3:5).

Children are hardwired for "faith". We know this and call it "innocence". Even the bible explicitly repeats this over and over.

Spoiler

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Deuteronomy 24:16

"But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin." II Chronicles 25:4

"He shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity." Ezekiel 18:17-18

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4

"I will judge…everyone according to his ways, saith the Lord God." Ezekiel 18:30

"That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen. 18:25

Death of the flesh is the overarching result of "Eve's Deception" (1 Tm. 2:14). Adam knew what Eve had done and it is implied that he would rather die with Eve, than live without her.

Nang... you act like Satan isn't (Heb. 2:14... and I think you miss what "Eat Dust" means)

You are altering what Jerry is saying and employing dishonest argument for the sake of obfuscation. Congratulations... it has been pointed out... AGAIN.

P.S. I make a much better friend than enemy.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You are denying the doctrine of original sin by the way you interpret Romans 5:12-21




Yes I have, by telling you to investigate traducianism in order to correct your view that the guilt of sin was not imputed to all Adam's seed.

It explains how all the offspring of Adam inherit his spiritual/physical corruption through procreation.

He is denying the doctrine of Original Sin, and I believe that [MENTION=9592]Shasta[/MENTION] dropped the most accurate reason why the theological drawing board is open again.

Yup... I don't hate you Shasta and I'm acknowledging your excellent point and quoting you...

The doctrine of "original sin" was formulated by Augustine in the Fifth Century. He came to that conclusion on the basis of Jerome's faulty Latin translation of Romans 5:12 which instead of saying

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because[Greek epi] all sinned (Romans 5:12)

said:


Augustine was unable to check this translation "in whom (Adam) all sinned" against the original Greek text because he could not read Greek. He complained that he had not learned it because he disliked his Greek tutor.

Here is a discussion about the mistranslation and the most deadly preposition in history.



As in many issues, Augustine was, first and foremost, a philosopher. As an exegete he was atrocious. Here he found a verse that, though mistranslated, fit neatly into his Gnostic idea of a totally ruined and helpless humanity and he used it without taking into consideration counter-balancing verses.

The result was that, in Augustine's system of theology, every human being is guilty of Adam's personal sin against God as soon as they are conceived. This is the basis for the Reformed doctrine of "legal imputation" Since Adam was supposedly our "legal representative" or "federal head" he acted for all of us. It was also why Augustine believed in infant damnation and why he and the Reformers who followed his teachings practiced infant baptism. This rite supposedly eliminated "original sin."

Calvin was not happy about the idea that babies had to be baptized to cover "original sin." Such ritualistic sacramentalism was far too Catholic for him so he made some rather vague exceptions for the unborn (who had never exercised faith in the gospel) saying that if they were "elect" they would be saved nevertheless. Of course if the unborn were NOT among the elect they would burn in hell.

The classic view of "original sin" is that Adam's personal sin is imputed (legally transferred) to the "account" of every human being that would ever live (except Jesus). It is a legal concept which is fitting since Calvin was a lawyer. The Greek idea was and is that our inherent lack of spiritual life (i.e., spiritual death) is the reason why human beings inevitably sin. Of course, if we were ontologically in union with the Spirit from conception there would be no need to be born again.

 

[Nang]

Problem is, if the legal imputation of a death sentence upon the first Adam is denied, the biblical basis for the legal imputation of the last "Adam's" (Christ's) righteousness upon all His offspring, is destroyed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes I have, by telling you to investigate traducianism in order to correct your view that the guilt of sin was not imputed to all Adam's seed.

Quote Scripture if you want to prove me wrong.

Problem is, if the legal imputation of a death sentence upon the first Adam is denied, the biblical basis for the legal imputation of Christ's righteousness upon all His offspring, is destroyed.

No one is identified with Adam until he sins. And no one is identified with the Lord Jesus until he believes.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Problem is, if the legal imputation of a death sentence upon the first Adam is denied, the biblical basis for the legal imputation of Christ's righteousness upon all His offspring, is destroyed.

No Nang... The problem is your entire theology "hinges" on "Original Sin" of Adam, and even the doctrine of "Election" begins to "Stumble" when it is proven to be incorrect.

The true original Sin was committed by the Serpent, and he received the Curse of being "Death, or having the POWER OF DEATH (Heb. 2:14)"

I've quoted the verse that shows it is Eve who was "Deceived" like 10 times now. That alone is a death nail. We have free will and I think this scares you, because you would then be responsible for it. Free will is the ultimate point here, and the denial of it is clearly by Satan. He Subverted God's Free Will based "system" of Love by imputing his serpentine malice and lust for God's authority upon us.

SUBVERT... "undermine the power and authority of (an established system or institution)."

Hubris is the original sin and it binds to Is. 14:14 and UNBELIEF. Jesus was adamant about this here..

John 16:8 And having come, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment: 9 concerning sin indeed, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go away to the Father and you behold Me no more; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.​

Bottom line... Does it bother you that we were all duped, and we all fall prey to the Devil's wiles, so we need Daddy to carry us home? It brings me peace. But... that's me.

Jerry is speaking consistently with scripture and so is GD and myself.

Is the Doctrine of "original sin' and "theology" more important than "Scripture"?

 

[Nang]

Quote Scripture if you want to prove me wrong.

No one is identified with Adam until he sins. And no one is identified with the Lord Jesus until he believes.

The teaching of Romans 5:12-21 and I Corinthians 15:42-57 reveal the contrast between the two Adams and who is identified with both.

All humanity is the offspring of the first natural Adam, and all are corrupt.

All the offspring of the "heavenly" Adam are changed from corruptible unto immortality.

The offspring only inherit from the fathers who generate them. The sons of Adam inherit corruption and death. The sons of God inherit victory over death and gain everlasting life.

Your changing the subject of Romans 5, into a lesson in free-will sinning, destroys the message contained therein, that points the reader to Jesus Christ.

IOW's there is the Gospel message contained therein, and you are obfuscating it with your fallible views and unorthodox false teaching.

 

[Nang]

No Nang... The problem is your entire theology "hinges" on "Original Sin" of Adam, and even the doctrine of "Election" begins to "Stumble" when it is proven to be incorrect.

The true original Sin was committed by the Serpent, and he received the Curse of being "Death, or having the POWER OF DEATH (Heb. 2:14)"

I've quoted the verse that shows it is Eve who was "Deceived" like 10 times now. That alone is a death nail. We have free will and I think this scares you, because you would then be responsible for it. Free will is the ultimate point here, and the denial of it is clearly by Satan. He Subverted God's Free Will based "system" of Love by imputing his serpentine malice and lust for God's authority upon us.

SUBVERT... "undermine the power and authority of (an established system or institution)."

Hubris is the original sin and it binds to Is. 14:14 and UNBELIEF. Jesus was adamant about this here..

John 16:8 And having come, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment: 9 concerning sin indeed, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go away to the Father and you behold Me no more; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.​

Bottom line... Does it bother you that we were all duped, and we all fall prey to the Devil's wiles, so we need Daddy to carry us home? It brings me peace. But... that's me.

Jerry is speaking consistently with scripture and so is GD and myself.

Is the Doctrine of "original sin' and "theology" more important than "Scripture"?

Bah . . .

You can center upon Satan all you want, but my focus is on Jesus Christ.

The doctrine of original sin is clear and scriptural. You and Jerry are posting strange stuff in order to take away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

i take responsibility for my sins. At one point in my life I knew that what I wanted to do was sinful but I did it anyway. That was also true for Adam and there is no reason to supoose that he was created spiritually dead. At some point in all men's life they decide to go their own way instead of God's way.

Nothing you said proves that a person is not alive spiritually when he emerges from the womb. Let us look what Paul said in regard to his salvation:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated regenerartion "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renvation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When a person is born again of the spirit that means that he is restored back his pristine state of previously being born of the spirit. That means that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

No Greek is going to help you understand the truth.

When you speak of being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, being born of the Holy Spirit---that is about having to be born of water and Spirit---that is about having to be born of water/washed by repenting of sins and cleaned by the Holy Spirit. That is when one is born again. They are born again, they have no sin and they now have the Holy Spirit living inside of them.

 

[God's Truth]

We do not die spiritually because Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to us. Instead, we die spiritually as a result of our own sin. And in order to die spritually as a result of our own sin we must first be alive spiritually. So no one is born dead spiritually

We are all born without knowing God---we are all born needing to be taught about Him.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The teaching of Romans 5:12-21 and I Corinthians 15:42-57 reveal the contrast between the two Adams and who is identified with both.

All humanity is the offspring of the first natural Adam, and all are corrupt.

All the offspring of the "heavenly" Adam are changed from corruptible unto immortality.

The offspring only inherit from the fathers who generate them. The sons of Adam inherit corruption and death. The sons of God inherit victory over death and gain everlasting life.

Your changing the subject of Romans 5, into a lesson in free-will sinning, destroys the message contained therein, that points the reader to Jesus Christ.

IOW's there is the Gospel message contained therein, and you are obfuscating it with your fallible views and unorthodox false teaching.

What Shasta said in the last discussion is accurate about Augustine and for all of my gruffness, I wasn't going to drop the fact that Augustine is known for huge scriptural "translation" blunders.

Ironically... Shasta dropped the bomb. The point... You are clinging to a doctrine that is based on an error. It is in-congruent with all scripture and you are mixing the scriptures about Adam with the wrong concepts.

The Serpent deceived us and "became death"... (Eat Dust... Return to Dust... Heb. 2:14) ... There's the originator of the mess that we know as "Death". What did Jesus do for us? He became the "curse" by imbibing in our condemnation of the Law... Death... 1 Co. 15:54f, 56 ... Heb. 2:14. Who did he defeat? THE DEVIL!

Death of the flesh entered through Adam... and by Hubris... we became subject to God's standards of perfection, with the simultaneous knowledge of Good and Evil. God alone can handle this burden! The Devil cherished pressing the consequences of our imperfection (when held to the perfect standards of God)... AND Even relished his murder of God HIMSELF.

What happens when you wrongly accuse God of being unjust and you try to kill Him, when God is the one who granted your office of power and anointing? Your serpent head is crushed! That's exactly what happened and this story is told over and over in scripture....

Saul... Judas... Absalom... Haman... etc... etc...

You are kicking against the pricks Nang.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

We are all born without knowing God---we are all born needing to be taught about Him.

Really? Romans 1:20 ... and Ecclesiastes 3:11

 

[God's Truth]

Quote Scripture if you want to prove me wrong.



No one is identified with Adam until he sins. And no one is identified with the Lord Jesus until he believes.

You are wrong. We all are born inclined to negativity and we must be taught about God and become purified by his blood. Some are more spiritually inclined than others, with a higher degree of knowing right from wrong; and others are more inclined to their flesh. We are flesh and spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

Really? Romans 1:20 ... and Ecclesiastes 3:11

How do you ever get that disproves what I said?

We are flesh and spirit. Some are more inclined towards their flesh and some are more spiritual.

The scripture you gave does not take away from the fact that we all have to be taught about God.

Ephesians 4:21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Bah . . .

You can center upon Satan all you want, but my focus is on Jesus Christ.

The doctrine of original sin is clear and scriptural. You and Jerry are posting strange stuff in order to take away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

No it's not... You place the cause of sin on Adam and you perpetually want to be a "fruit inspector". If your focus was on Christ, you would hold to utter, simple, salvation upon belief.

Election is suggesting that some people are more special than others. You missed all four gospels if you think this is a fact. Jesus hung out with thieves, Roman sympathizers, Samaritans, Prostitutes, tax collectors and the like.

You are genuinely missing the big picture and actually focusing on Humanity. In a sense... you are exonerating Satan with the words you speak... who ultimately caused our Lord and Savior to Die... Willingly!?