ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

glorydaz

Well-known member
These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness"
(Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth"
(Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This princle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"
(Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.

Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death. Therefore, we can understand that Adam's sin of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil resulted in all of his descendants having a knowledge of law. And when his descendants sinned against that law they died spiritually.

I have to confess, Jerry, that I never thought of that law being the conscience. So you don't think God created Adam with a conscience, or do you think the sin awakened his conscience? Or was that an actual change of his nature?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I first got the idea when I read this in The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy:

"The Edenic covenant is tied to the dispensation of innocence, whereby God tested man to see if he would live by God's conditions. God told man not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17). The dispensation ended in man's failure--Eve was deceived (1 Timothy 2:14) and Adam deliberately disobeyed. As a result, the first man had personal and experiental knowledge of good and evil. What seemed like a simple, limited act of eating fruit ended in a broad, conscious knowledge of right and wrong. In the next dispensation, the descendants of Adam were responsible for this new awareness of sin" [emphasis added] (The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, ed.Tim LaHaye & Ed Hindson, [Eugene: Harvest House, 2004], 86).​

So, you're suggesting the change came because of God's wrath.....

Romans 1:18KJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;​

And the descendants would fit in here?

Romans 1:19-21KJV Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​
 

God's Truth

New member
I have to confess, Jerry, that I never thought of that law being the conscience. So you don't think God created Adam with a conscience, or do you think the sin awakened his conscience? Or was that an actual change of his nature?

I think you might have just saved Jerry's confused rendition.
 

God's Truth

New member
It just doesn't.

It matters because humanity was thrown out of Christ, and now we have to get back in Christ.

Instead of believing how some do that God made the plan for salvation after Adam sinned.

God made Adam and Eve innocent, but gave them free will, He knew they would sin.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Which also explains why those who did not sin like Adam did would also die (physically).

The reason why all of the descendants die physically is because no one has access to the very thing which allowed mortal man to live forever--the tree of life:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).​

So Adam was responsible for the fact that all men are ordained to die physically (Heb.9:27). So the death spoken of here is not in regard to a physical death but instead to a spiritual death:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Therefore, when a person sins he dies spiritually. In order to die spiritually a person must first be alive spiritually. That means that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead but instead spiritually alive.

I have to confess, Jerry, that I never thought of that law being the conscience. So you don't think God created Adam with a conscience, or do you think the sin awakened his conscience? Or was that an actual change of his nature?

I don't believe that Adam was created with a conscience but instead in a state of innocence. Then when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil his nature changed.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
So, you're suggesting the change came because of God's wrath.....

Romans 1:18KJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;​

And the descendants would fit in here?

Romans 1:19-21KJV Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

I believe that when men received a conscience they became aware of what is right and wrong. Then by intuition they also know that they will ultimately be held responsible for their behavior. And just by that alone they know that there will be One who will judge them and that One is God.

Man should also understand, just by observing the universe, that there is a Creator and if they deny the existence of God they are without excuse.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Without a doubt Romans 5:12-18 is the most misunderstood passages of the New Testament and a false understanding of this passage provides the very foundation for the myth that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all his descendants. Let us look first at Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verse which follows was written in order to explain how that came about:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness"
(Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth"
(Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This princle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"
(Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.

Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death. Therefore, we can understand that Adam's sin of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil resulted in all of his descendants having a knowledge of law. And when his descendants sinned against that law they died spiritually.

When we look at I Thessalonians 5:23 we learn that believers have spirit and soul and body

When we look at Isaiah 43:7 "...for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, yea, I have made him"

The body of man was formed, Genesis 2:7, the body was made (from existing substances) the spirit was created. The spirit is that which is the image of God, John 4:24, God is spirit. When Adam transgressed, did he lose body or soul? No, what he lost was spirit, his spiritual connection with God. Man was no longer body and soul and spirit, but body and soul only. Animals have body and soul. Adam died, he was no longer what God designed him to be. Much like a flashlight without a working battery, it is useless for what it was intended to be. Through out the OT and the gospels, God would put spirit upon men (and women) who God chose to do that for, but not until Jesus Christ accomplished his works could man be born again of God's spirit, thus again becoming alive again (from God's point of design and intent) That incorruptible seed of I Peter 1:23 is the gift of holy spirit, I John 4:13 which cannot sin.

Thus Adam and Eve did die, the battery was gone.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
The reason why all of the descendants die physically is because no one has access to the very thing which allowed mortal man to live forever--the tree of life:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).​

So Adam was responsible for the fact that all men are ordained to die physically (Heb.9:27). So the death spoken of here is not in regard to a physical death but instead to a spiritual death:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Therefore, when a person sins he dies spiritually. In order to die spiritually a person must first be alive spiritually. That means that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead but instead spiritually alive.



I don't believe that Adam was created with a conscience but instead in a state of innocence. Then when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil his nature changed.

Your theory does not explain why people will inevitably become sinners and for the fact that all men need a redeemer. If people are born spiritually alive then at least some people would be able to walk perfectly before God...yet none seem to. If we were born spiritually alive then we would be like Jesus who was conceived by the Spirit, perfect and unfallen. This is plainly not true because men universally and inevitably sin. Jesus did not because He was in perfect union with the Father and "always did that which pleased Him." John the Baptist required a special impartation of the Spirit to be as holy as he was, yet even he was not perfect. When he was in prison he began to doubt if Jesus was the Messiah.

What we lack at conception is spiritual life, that is, the life giving Holy Spirit is not joined to our human spirits. That does not happen until we are born again. If we were born spiritually alive there would be no reason to be born AGAIN but Jesus said we all must be born again. He would not have said that if there had not been some deficiency in the first birth.

I agree that the loss of access to the Tree of Life is what caused physical death but the other spiritual death was the result of Adam being separated from God. Since there is an organic connection between us and Adam this meant God departed also from all his genetic progeny. However, the absence of spiritual life in our state of innocence is not the same as the death results from our own sin. The enmity that develops between us and God is due to our own choices.

Conscience is that faculty that gives us an awareness of right and wrong. As soon as Adam was given a rule He had moral conscience because he knew what he should and should not do. Innocence would be an unawareness of what is right and wrong. To say Adam was innocent in the sense that he had no moral consciousness is to free him from all culpability for his actions. He could only be found guilty if he knew right from wrong. When a child pulls the trigger of a gun and kills someone he is not found guilty of murder if he does not know that he should not do it. Adam knew what he should not do.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


:crackup:
 
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Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Who has said differently?

Jerry did. He said Adams deed did not spread to all, when Romans 5 says it did.

the myth that Adam's spiritual death was imputed to all his descendants.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

The Holy Spirit had Paul write this because he knew people like the worker bees will claim they didn't sin. Of course it could also be direct revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry did. He said Adams deed did not spread to all, when Romans 5 says it did.

I have said that Adam's sin was responsible for man's physical death. But all men die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin.

Romans 5 will be searched in vain for any teaching which indicate that anyone died spiritually as a result of Adam's sin. In fact, there we read that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Therefore, when a person sins he dies spiritually. In order to die spiritually a person must first be alive spiritually. That means that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead but instead spiritually alive.

Agreed.

I don't believe that Adam was created with a conscience but instead in a state of innocence. Then when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil his nature changed.

I think he was born with a conscience exactly as we are. The knowledge of good and evil is when we experience quilt from having sinned. That's the effect sin has on man's conscience. It's why children remain innocent until they experience quilt for having done wrong. "Oh, I feel guilty....that's because God created me with a conscience." ;)
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I have said that Adam's sin was responsible for man's physical death. But all men die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin.

God told Adam he would die "in the day you eat" of the forbidden tree.

Adam ate. Adam did not physically die.

Is God a liar?

No. Adam died that day for sure. Adam & Eve died spiritually and were uncovered with the shame of it.

You are wrongly teaching Romans 5:12-21 and you should cease from it.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
God told Adam he would die "in the day you eat" of the forbidden tree.

Adam ate. Adam did not physically die.

Is God a liar?

No. Adam died that day for sure. Adam & Eve died spiritually and were uncovered with the shame of it.

You are wrongly teaching Romans 5:12-21 and you should cease from it.

Romans 5 will be searched in vain for any teaching which indicate that anyone died spiritually as a result of Adam's sin. In fact, there we read that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

2 Pt. 3:8 ... is God on our clock, or are we on God's?
 

God's Truth

New member
Jerry did. He said Adams deed did not spread to all, when Romans 5 says it did.



14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

The Holy Spirit had Paul write this because he knew people like the worker bees will claim they didn't sin. Of course it could also be direct revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Are you kidding? Workers do what Jesus says, and He says repent of sins. He says admit to being a sinner and repent of it.
 

God's Truth

New member
I have said that Adam's sin was responsible for man's physical death. But all men die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin.

Romans 5 will be searched in vain for any teaching which indicate that anyone died spiritually as a result of Adam's sin. In fact, there we read that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

It is still as a result of Adam's sin.
 
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