The Jesus Club

[clefty]

Would it not make sense that these people viewed their reward "afar," due to having to wait for Jesus? Let us consider the Transfiguration. Those prophets were not "asleep." They were conversing.

it was a vision

Add onto this explanation; the graves opening up on Easter. This event, combined with the pre-Christ list (note there are no Apostles in this list) point to Jesus being the point at which souls are admitted into heaven.

not a big thing this event...imagine a man walking about claiming to be king David or Isaiah etc...should make at least the back pages...

Combine this with the souls mentioned in Revelation 4 and 5, and one can logically deduce that Christians are admitted to heaven upon death.

deduce? revelations was a vision too...not a documantary...where do they stable the four horses...when they poop does it fall how far...how about the poop of the dragon...and other beasts...did the plagues of the seven bowls actually happen?

 

[iouae]

Good work...ha...Don’t forget Job 1...

Heaven is order and structure rank and hierarchy it makes sense there are many up there never having been down here...

Job 1 did come to mind. Here too, spirit beings are modifying God's plan.

 

[clefty]

Ha - you beat me to it.

Here is another case, I believe, that angels counsel God.

Mat 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Each new convert is assigned an angel. If the angel sees this new convert in danger of falling away (say due to offence) the angel rushes to the Father, and the Father's door is never closed to these angels. They counsel together, and the angel rushes back to save the little one from falling away.

My wife works with kids...she loves that verse about the angels reporting on the little ones...

 

[clefty]

Job 1 did come to mind. Here too, spirit beings are modifying God's plan.

Check out the link in post #71 about Enoch Moses and EliYah not in heaven yet...

 

[iouae]

Would it not make sense that these people viewed their reward "afar," due to having to wait for Jesus? Let us consider the Transfiguration. Those prophets were not "asleep." They were conversing.

Maybe that was why they were translated in time and space - so that they could converse with Christ.
And here they are conversing on the Mt. of Transfiguration, not in heaven.

Then maybe they go back to being translated.

 

[clefty]

Maybe that was why they were translated in time and space - so that they could converse with Christ.
And here they are conversing on the Mt. of Transfiguration, not in heaven.

Then maybe they go back to being translated.

Holy Spirit inspired vision...how were they recognized? Name tags?

The Spirit impressed them to realize the Law Moses and Prophets EliYah spoke to Him...He was their goal...

 

[iouae]

Add onto this explanation; the graves opening up on Easter. This event, combined with the pre-Christ list (note there are no Apostles in this list) point to Jesus being the point at which souls are admitted into heaven.

Combine this with the souls mentioned in Revelation 4 and 5, and one can logically deduce that Christians are admitted to heaven upon death.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Those coming out of the graves returned to mortal life on earth, presumably folks who had recently died in Jerusalem. These eventually died, as did Lazarus brother of Mary and Martha.

I see no scriptures decisively pointing to folks from Jesus on going to heaven.

On the contrary, I see lots of scriptures to the effect of waiting asleep, till the last trump.

 

[clefty]

Those coming out of the graves returned to mortal life on earth, presumably folks who had recently died in Jerusalem. These eventually died, as did Lazarus brother of Mary and Martha.

I see no scriptures decisively pointing to folks from Jesus on going to heaven.

On the contrary, I see lots of scriptures to the effect of waiting asleep, till the last trump.

Oh goodie...There is more than one Trump?

Ok it’s late good night...

 

[iouae]

BTW nowhere does it say that Moses was translated.

Moses died, and God hid his body.

Moses was still in full vigour when he died, but God made sure Moses died on the wrong side of Jordan nevertheless.

 

[iouae]

Oh goodie...There is more than one Trump?

Ok it’s late good night...

Nice chatting

 

[jsanford108]

Iouae, I apologize for the length of this post; I am trying to address three or four of your posts, so that way we can bring it back into focus, rather than trying to juggle different feints at the same time.

I think you are approaching this from the point of view that when God asks advice, he already knows the answer.
Why would angels volunteer their opinions if after thousands of years they saw God ignore their advice.

Why would God need advice?

When I read this account in heaven we have spirits each presenting a different idea to the Father, and He chooses one from them as the best idea.

1Ki 22:20
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21

Even if God is listening to various ideas of approach, that is not taking advice. Let us keep in mind, God asked who shall undertake this endeavor; thus, God was asking for volunteers, not advice.

Maybe that was why they were translated in time and space - so that they could converse with Christ.
And here they are conversing on the Mt. of Transfiguration, not in heaven.

Then maybe they go back to being translated.

Perhaps I am confused by your terminology. How do you define "translate?"

From my initial reading of this word, you seemed to meant a translation in space/time. If this is the case, it is impossible. The future, while it can be known by an eternal being, has not occurred yet. So, those present at the Transfiguration were truly present there; not time-travelers who were called from the past. I am not being satirical here, I am simply addressing what I interpreted as your meaning of "translation."

Those coming out of the graves returned to mortal life on earth, presumably folks who had recently died in Jerusalem. These eventually died, as did Lazarus brother of Mary and Martha.

I see no scriptures decisively pointing to folks from Jesus on going to heaven.

I hate to use an atheist argument here, as their point lies in a misinterpretation of Scripture; but I see you making the exact same mistake as they do.

The argument: Do you not think that if an event in which several dead persons were suddenly alive again, that there would have been some sort of documentation outside of Gospel accounts? Wouldn't several Hebrews, who were noted historians, have documented such an event? Or how about the Roman occupiers? Such a phenomenal physical event would have attracted attention.

However, if one interprets this as a spiritual resurrection of the dead (risen in spirit/soul), then such an event being unnoticed in the physical realm would make sense. Thus, the Gospel accounts being the only ones to note this, as it would have been revealed to them via the Holy Spirit, post-Resurrection.

BTW nowhere does it say that Moses was translated.

Moses died, and God hid his body.

Moses was still in full vigour when he died, but God made sure Moses died on the wrong side of Jordan nevertheless.

I agree. I asked about Moses due to him being present at the Transfiguration. Thus, if he was "soul sleeping," he could not have been present, as that very doctrine relies on no one rising until the Second Coming.

I think it would be profitable for discussion if you could explain your meaning of "translation." Likewise, we should be logical in approach, not relying on doctrine as our interpretive lens for Scripture.

 

[jsanford108]

it was a vision

Friend, if we cannot agree on a particular even being literal, then there is no point in preceding, as we would have to find the root of our disagreement, rather than the extrapolations of it.

not a big thing this event...imagine a man walking about claiming to be king David or Isaiah etc...should make at least the back pages...

This event was a spiritual resurrection, which makes sense with what I have said thus far. If you are correct, then this event makes no sense.

I find it ironic that you view this event as "no big thing," while also considering the Transfiguration to be a mere vision. Neither of these are interpretations are derived from Scripture; making them extra-biblical influences, whether sourced or not.

deduce? revelations was a vision too...not a documantary...where do they stable the four horses...when they poop does it fall how far...how about the poop of the dragon...and other beasts...did the plagues of the seven bowls actually happen?

I never said Revelation was not a vision. Again, you are making a straw man to attack. Revelation is a vision. My posit question was not "was it a vision," but a call for you to explain how your ascribed doctrine of soul sleeping does not align with the events and experiences described in Revelation 4 and 5.

My friend, I do not think that you are sincerely seeking discussion, as your answers tend to be short, hasty "move along" statements, or set-ups of straw men, and their subsequent beatings.

If I am wrong, I apologize. I am simply basing this on your attitude and responses. Granted, it was late, so either of us could have been tired or in a situation of misunderstanding.

 

[iouae]

Iouae, I apologize for the length of this post; I am trying to address three or four of your posts, so that way we can bring it back into focus, rather than trying to juggle different feints at the same time.

Why would God need advice?

Do you remember the time God wanted to destroy Israel, and make Moses a nation?
That is why God needs advice. To destroy Israel would have been less than ideal.

Even if God is listening to various ideas of approach, that is not taking advice. Let us keep in mind, God asked who shall undertake this endeavor; thus, God was asking for volunteers, not advice.

You seem dead set on the idea that God does not need advice, only volunteers.
I see God as being like me, and I need advice. Many heads are better than one.
And God has emotions - He is a jealous God.
God sometimes gets into a rage - just like me.
So maybe our ideas of God are too large to bridge, but I see God as being just like me, but infinitely smarter and brighter. And God listens to our prayers and changes His mind for us. God is interactive, with all angels and man being able to influence Him. That is why I hate the predestination doctrine so much.

Perhaps I am confused by your terminology. How do you define "translate?"

I understand translation to be the same as death, which is a sleep, except that the body is removed and does not go through the dying process.
For instance, I can imagine Enoch feeling all alone as a believer, and tired of physical life alone in his beliefs, requesting death, so God removed him in an instant.

Like I said in the thread I started, there is no spirit component to man.
Folks think there must be something left of Enoch once translated, or once his atoms are removed from earth.
Enoch becomes a memory in God's head, until God puts Enoch back in a spirit body, or even a physical one.
And that is what God did with Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration. They were awoken, spoke to Christ and each other, and are now back to the sleep of death awaiting the last trump, like the rest of the dead.

From my initial reading of this word, you seemed to meant a translation in space/time. If this is the case, it is impossible. The future, while it can be known by an eternal being, has not occurred yet. So, those present at the Transfiguration were truly present there; not time-travelers who were called from the past. I am not being satirical here, I am simply addressing what I interpreted as your meaning of "translation."

Being "asleep", then awoken as spirit beings, like Christ too was translated at that moment, since Christ too appeared glorified, then they were put back on ice, and Christ was returned to His physical body, losing His spirit glory and glow. There is no future time travel involved - just asleep - awake - asleep.

I hate to use an atheist argument here, as their point lies in a misinterpretation of Scripture; but I see you making the exact same mistake as they do.

The argument: Do you not think that if an event in which several dead persons were suddenly alive again, that there would have been some sort of documentation outside of Gospel accounts? Wouldn't several Hebrews, who were noted historians, have documented such an event? Or how about the Roman occupiers? Such a phenomenal physical event would have attracted attention.

I believe some ministries have the dead being raised on almost a daily basis and you never hear of it.

Likewise, the dead being raised was not even a big enough deal for all the gospels to mention it.
Only Matthew writes one short line, Mat 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
IMO "saints" refers to recently deceased saints, not OT saints.

However, if one interprets this as a spiritual resurrection of the dead (risen in spirit/soul), then such an event being unnoticed in the physical realm would make sense. Thus, the Gospel accounts being the only ones to note this, as it would have been revealed to them via the Holy Spirit, post-Resurrection.

Like I said, it was just another case of Lazarus, or the young maid being raised from the dead, or the young man being carried out of the city whom Christ raised from the dead. To me it's no biggie, and I certainly am not going to base any doctrine on this one-liner.

I agree. I asked about Moses due to him being present at the Transfiguration. Thus, if he was "soul sleeping," he could not have been present, as that very doctrine relies on no one rising until the Second Coming.

God has rules, but God is free to wake the dead whenever.
Thus if the general rule is for saints to await the last trump, some might wake earlier, be transfigured, and go back to waiting.

A scripture such as the following is a PRINCIPLE not a RULE.
Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Some will not die. Some will be translated. Some, like Lazarus will die twice etc. Those transfigured, Moses and Elijah also break this principle.

I think it would be profitable for discussion if you could explain your meaning of "translation." Likewise, we should be logical in approach, not relying on doctrine as our interpretive lens for Scripture.

Same as death, minus suffering, and minus corruption of body. They are moved (trans) across (late-ral) space and- or time, but never into the future. They sleep until the future arrives, then they are awoken in a different time and place, and body.

PS. What Clefty wrote about the transfiguration being a vision is a possibility.
Christ spoke many times in person, with Moses and Elijah since Christ was the God who spoke to these OT men. And it could have been "filmed" and played back in the transfiguration. I.e.. this could have been archival footage.

 

[jsanford108]

Do you remember the time God wanted to destroy Israel, and make Moses a nation?
That is why God needs advice. To destroy Israel would have been less than ideal.

I do not recall this particular passage. Would you mind refreshing me?

Also, any action committed by God is Good, and beyond reproach. If not, then he is not God. Advice is usually given as means of correction or to highlight the "right" path; Neither of which God would need, as he is eternally Goodness and Truth.

Do you see how the idea of God needing advice is paradoxical to his nature?

You seem dead set on the idea that God does not need advice, only volunteers.
I see God as being like me, and I need advice. Many heads are better than one.
And God has emotions - He is a jealous God.
God sometimes gets into a rage - just like me.
So maybe our ideas of God are too large to bridge, but I see God as being just like me, but infinitely smarter and brighter. And God listens to our prayers and changes His mind for us. God is interactive, with all angels and man being able to influence Him. That is why I hate the predestination doctrine so much.

We agree that the doctrine of predestination is in error, as it is contradictory to Scripture. Free will does exist. We agree.

The issue I find within this particular quote is that you are comparing God to you, rather than the inverse. We strive to be like God. God is "like us," sure. But to bring him down to being relative to our emotions and whims is putting God into a box (figuratively). Rather than trying to identify with God, we make him identify with us. Make sense?

God is jealous. But jealousy is not unjust or unfair. Jealousy is a good thing, as long as it does not become an extreme. God being jealous makes sense; as any worship to a lesser god is unjustified and a false application of glory.

I understand translation to be the same as death, which is a sleep, except that the body is removed and does not go through the dying process.
For instance, I can imagine Enoch feeling all alone as a believer, and tired of physical life alone in his beliefs, requesting death, so God removed him in an instant.

So, why not use the term "death?" It takes way less time to type and say.

Like I said in the thread I started, there is no spirit component to man.
Folks think there must be something left of Enoch once translated, or once his atoms are removed from earth.
Enoch becomes a memory in God's head, until God puts Enoch back in a spirit body, or even a physical one.
And that is what God did with Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration. They were awoken, spoke to Christ and each other, and are now back to the sleep of death awaiting the last trump, like the rest of the dead.

To say, or imply, that there is no spiritual component to man is ignorant. And I do not mean this offensively. To ignore evidence (hence, "ignorant") of direct mentions to the spiritual nature of a human, made within the Scriptures, is denying fact.

The Scriptures mention man having a spirit many times. So, to say that this is untrue is to disagree with your very source material; thus, a paradox.

Likewise, the dead being raised was not even a big enough deal for all the gospels to mention it.
Only Matthew writes one short line, Mat 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
IMO "saints" refers to recently deceased saints, not OT saints.

I agree that "saints" refers to all saints, not just OT ones.

Like I said, it was just another case of Lazarus, or the young maid being raised from the dead, or the young man being carried out of the city whom Christ raised from the dead. To me it's no biggie, and I certainly am not going to base any doctrine on this one-liner.

I agree that we should not base doctrine on a single verse.

God has rules, but God is free to wake the dead whenever.
Thus if the general rule is for saints to await the last trump, some might wake earlier, be transfigured, and go back to waiting.

A scripture such as the following is a PRINCIPLE not a RULE.
Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Some will not die. Some will be translated. Some, like Lazarus will die twice etc. Those transfigured, Moses and Elijah also break this principle.

I agree that God is free to do whatever he wishes. And that general rules, applied to humanity, can be broken by God. Alleluia.

However, this "rule" of soul sleep is not biblical. It is a theory, based on OT beliefs (which were true at that time), then applied eternally. This theory is disproved with the Easter risings, various words of the Apostles, etc.

As stated, the soul sleep doctrine does not jive with Revelation 4 and 5, as there is a multitude in heaven (not a heavenly host) praising the Lamb/God. Thus, logically, souls must ascend to Heaven post-death.

Besides, the "Final Judgement" implies that there were prior judgement(s); otherwise, it would just be "The Judgement."

 

[iouae]

I do not recall this particular passage. Would you mind refreshing me?

Exo 32:10
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Also, any action committed by God is Good, and beyond reproach. If not, then he is not God. Advice is usually given as means of correction or to highlight the "right" path; Neither of which God would need, as he is eternally Goodness and Truth.

But like Ex 32:10 God can at times be persuaded to do better.

Do you see how the idea of God needing advice is paradoxical to his nature?

I understand why you would say so, but for God to take advice and choose between a good and a better option is my natural way of thinking. Because I think of God as like you or I - at times we do well, and at times we do better, and advice never hurts. I could find many dozens of scriptures where God learns - such as at the flood God repents of making man ...
Gen 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And after the flood God removed the curse on the ground and came to terms that he was dealing with humans weaker than expected originally.
Gen 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

We agree that the doctrine of predestination is in error, as it is contradictory to Scripture. Free will does exist. We agree.

Thus God interacts with man, and as He does so, He too learns. God is far more engaging with man than before Christ came, or before the flood. I say God learned He had a bigger and harder project than He at first anticipated. Thus God too can do better. The NC is better than the OC. Why bother with an OC? Possibly God thought it might work that He could get a nation to stay faithful. Yet this idea failed. Now He is making the faithful into one nation, rather than trying to make one nation faithful.

This idea of God learning, growing, developing is as natural to me and my mentor (whom I discuss this with often) as breathing. To you and others it is a foreign and anathema idea. For predestinationists it would be blasphemy, because they say God knows everything, and cannot learn or grow.

The issue I find within this particular quote is that you are comparing God to you, rather than the inverse.

But if I and you are made in God's image, I see you or myself, and I see a dim reflection of God.

We strive to be like God. God is "like us," sure. But to bring him down to being relative to our emotions and whims is putting God into a box (figuratively). Rather than trying to identify with God, we make him identify with us. Make sense?

Sorry no But a nice sermon which most would buy.

God has emotions and whims, and is a jealous God. He is also very powerful and bright.
You and others think I demean and diminish God, and if you were as impolite as many on this forum, you would be calling me a heretic, for the hundredth time. I am just sorry for folks who cannot get what God is truly like.

To give an example...
Psa 95:11
Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Heb 3:11
So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

God share that the older generation of Israel whom He took out of Egypt would NEVER INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE, OR THE LAND OF CANAAN.

You may doubt that, but you would simply be wrong. How do I know that? I look into myself, and I see how in a fit of rage I might have said the same thing at their wanting to choose a leader and reject God, and go back to Egypt. And after God swore this oath before the heavenly host, God could not go back on His word. That generation is toast. They will, like the rich man, be resurrected to see a wall of molten lava approaching them, and they will be utterly consumed. They are only resurrected after the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment - to hear sentence and have sentence passed, to create justice and closure.

And I can imagine the host of angelic beings being wide eyed at seeing God so boiling mad.

God, like us, is a mixture of brilliance and emotion. That is why God values emotions so much, such as love, joy, peace, long-suffering, goodness, meekness, temperance, faith. These are on the emotional side of the scale, rather than on the intellectual side.

God is jealous. But jealousy is not unjust or unfair. Jealousy is a good thing, as long as it does not become an extreme. God being jealous makes sense; as any worship to a lesser god is unjustified and a false application of glory.

Here you are intellectualising jealousy. I just think of my wife say finding out that I have been cheating on her, and I know what God is really like. This is pure emotion on God's part.

So, why not use the term "death?" It takes way less time to type and say.

God chose to translate some - meaning spare them the ageing process, and the death process. So we have to call it what it is - translation.

To say, or imply, that there is no spiritual component to man is ignorant. And I do not mean this offensively. To ignore evidence (hence, "ignorant") of direct mentions to the spiritual nature of a human, made within the Scriptures, is denying fact.

The Scriptures mention man having a spirit many times. So, to say that this is untrue is to disagree with your very source material; thus, a paradox.

Well I am just as glad to not have to prove you incorrect It would have meant a lot of work.
But wherever you think you find a spiritual component like "spirit" this simply means "breath"="life".

And the soul is what ground + "breath" equals - again nothing spiritual.

And I explained in a thread I started how God does not need anything to resurrect you or I except what is in His head, viz. data about us. Since He knows us intimately, we are just data, and data can be transferred into a spirit body.

As stated, the soul sleep doctrine does not jive with Revelation 4 and 5, as there is a multitude in heaven (not a heavenly host) praising the Lamb/God. Thus, logically, souls must ascend to Heaven post-death.

Besides, the "Final Judgement" implies that there were prior judgement(s); otherwise, it would just be "The Judgement."

We saints are being judged now.
1Pe 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

We who are counted worthy, will rise to meet Christ in the air.

There is a judgment of the wicked at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Then there is a Ezek 37 judgment when those who have never known God will be raised, and given a chance to believe. They will have their bones stand up, be given flesh and a chance to know Christ. I am not sure when this occurs.

I read places like Revelation and Ezekiel, and don't see humans or resurrected saints in heaven, but rather the created angels.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I do not recall this particular passage. Would you mind refreshing me?

And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people!Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: “ Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people.Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people. - Exodus 32:9-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus32:9-14&version=KJ21

“Furthermore the Lord spoke to me, saying, ‘I have seen this people, and indeed they are a stiff-necked people.Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.’ - Deuteronomy 9:13-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy9:13-14&version=KJ21

Also, any action committed by God is Good, and beyond reproach. If not, then he is not God. Advice is usually given as means of correction or to highlight the "right" path; Neither of which God would need, as he is eternally Goodness and Truth.

Do you see how the idea of God needing advice is paradoxical to his nature?

We agree that the doctrine of predestination is in error, as it is contradictory to Scripture. Free will does exist. We agree.

The issue I find within this particular quote is that you are comparing God to you, rather than the inverse. We strive to be like God. God is "like us," sure. But to bring him down to being relative to our emotions and whims is putting God into a box (figuratively). Rather than trying to identify with God, we make him identify with us. Make sense?

God is jealous. But jealousy is not unjust or unfair. Jealousy is a good thing, as long as it does not become an extreme. God being jealous makes sense; as any worship to a lesser god is unjustified and a false application of glory.


So, why not use the term "death?" It takes way less time to type and say.

To say, or imply, that there is no spiritual component to man is ignorant. And I do not mean this offensively. To ignore evidence (hence, "ignorant") of direct mentions to the spiritual nature of a human, made within the Scriptures, is denying fact.

The Scriptures mention man having a spirit many times. So, to say that this is untrue is to disagree with your very source material; thus, a paradox.

I agree that "saints" refers to all saints, not just OT ones.


I agree that we should not base doctrine on a single verse.


I agree that God is free to do whatever he wishes. And that general rules, applied to humanity, can be broken by God. Alleluia.

However, this "rule" of soul sleep is not biblical. It is a theory, based on OT beliefs (which were true at that time), then applied eternally. This theory is disproved with the Easter risings, various words of the Apostles, etc.

As stated, the soul sleep doctrine does not jive with Revelation 4 and 5, as there is a multitude in heaven (not a heavenly host) praising the Lamb/God. Thus, logically, souls must ascend to Heaven post-death.

Besides, the "Final Judgement" implies that there were prior judgement(s); otherwise, it would just be "The Judgement."

 

[jsanford108]

Exo 32:10
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

I want to thank you, Iouae, as well as JudgeRightly, for this reference/clarification.




I understand why you would say so, but for God to take advice and choose between a good and a better option is my natural way of thinking. Because I think of God as like you or I - at times we do well, and at times we do better, and advice never hurts....

Sorry no But a nice sermon which most would buy.

God has emotions and whims, and is a jealous God. He is also very powerful and bright.
You and others think I demean and diminish God, and if you were as impolite as many on this forum, you would be calling me a heretic, for the hundredth time. I am just sorry for folks who cannot get what God is truly like.[/QUOTE]Here, you highlight where I find fault within your view of God. You apply "your natural way of thinking" to a supernatural being.

Now, we can go back and forth on attributes of God, but that is a different topic from this thread. While I do think that it tangentially influences the nature of the soul, I think it would be better if we realign our focus onto the nature of the soul.

You may doubt that, but you would simply be wrong. How do I know that? I look into myself, and I see how in a fit of rage I might have said the same thing at their wanting to choose a leader and reject God, and go back to Egypt. And after God swore this oath before the heavenly host, God could not go back on His word. That generation is toast. They will, like the rich man, be resurrected to see a wall of molten lava approaching them, and they will be utterly consumed. They are only resurrected after the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment - to hear sentence and have sentence passed, to create justice and closure.

Now, here, you claim that my doubts are wrong. And that is fine; however, without evidence, proofs, and logic, your assertion is based on nothing except your own authority. And argument is not false just because someone else says it is.

And I think that is the issue with your entire posit. As I will try my best to demonstrate further down.

Well I am just as glad to not have to prove you incorrect It would have meant a lot of work.
But wherever you think you find a spiritual component like "spirit" this simply means "breath"="life".

And the soul is what ground + "breath" equals - again nothing spiritual.

Where is your evidence of this? (I always accept Scriptural, as well as extra-biblical evidence, as long as it is logical in deduction)

We saints are being judged now.
1Pe 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I agree that we are being judged now. But are we currently "saints?" I would say no. In fact, your very next quote points to you actually agreeing with me on this:

We who are counted worthy, will rise to meet Christ in the air.

Not all who claim to be Christian are going to be "counted worthy." For not every one who says "Lord, Lord" will receive inheritance. This particular paraphrase, combined with various Scriptural passages, points to not all who claim to be Christian are, in fact, sanctified. So, there must be more to sanctification than mere belief, or mere actions. (This can quickly get into another tangent, so I will just leave it at this)

Then there is a Ezek 37 judgment when those who have never known God will be raised, and given a chance to believe. They will have their bones stand up, be given flesh and a chance to know Christ. I am not sure when this occurs.

The quote from Ezekial points to a belief held by the Apostles and Early Church: That during Christ's three days before the Resurrection, He was preaching to those who were deceased, giving them the chance to believe and receive salvation. These would be the souls that rose with Christ on Easter.

I read places like Revelation and Ezekiel, and don't see humans or resurrected saints in heaven, but rather the created angels.

I would say that you seeing this is viewing the Scripture through the lens of your doctrine/beliefs, rather than just reading what is plainly written.

Consider the following verses:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell: nor suffer thy Holy One to see corruption.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things: that your whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of faith to the saving of the soul.

Again, the multitude in Revelation 4 and 5 does not say "angelic" or "heavenly host." Any time angels are referenced, they are called "angels," "angelic," or "heavenly host." It does make sense for the author to specifically leave out such descriptive nomenclature for the Elders and the multitude, especially having used them before and after this section. This logically points to the Elders and multitude not being angels.

 

[clefty]

Friend, if we cannot agree on a particular even being literal, then there is no point in preceding, as we would have to find the root of our disagreement, rather than the extrapolations of it.

coming down the mountain He told instructed they tell no one this vision...

This event was a spiritual resurrection, which makes sense with what I have said thus far. If you are correct, then this event makes no sense.

I find it ironic that you view this event as "no big thing," while also considering the Transfiguration to be a mere vision. Neither of these are interpretations are derived from Scripture; making them extra-biblical influences, whether sourced or not.

It wasn’t that big a deal in the scope of things as there is little else in sctipture about it or outside of scripture...miracles happen people rose from the grave

I never said Revelation was not a vision.

sure but you are doing something worse building a dogma teaching and belief on something intending to be spiritually symbolic...

Again, you are making a straw man to attack. Revelation is a vision. My posit question was not "was it a vision," but a call for you to explain how your ascribed doctrine of soul sleeping does not align with the events and experiences described in Revelation 4 and 5.

So what there are 24 elders...they are 24 people who died here on earth and are now elders? No specifics, no reasons why they were chosen elders...they described as wearing white robes and crowns on their heads...saying the same things over and over and over again forever and ever?

ok so who do they symbolize or who are they actually? Again its a vision not a documentary...the vision includes creatures full of eyes front and back...one creature has the face of a man...so again is this literal?

None of these elders even received a name but are merely “minor” roles...at least in that other metaphorical depiction we had Abraham...but not in this one...

Nothing here to convince me that grandma is up there watching me post...

My friend, I do not think that you are sincerely seeking discussion, as your answers tend to be short, hasty "move along" statements, or set-ups of straw men, and their subsequent beatings.

If I am wrong, I apologize. I am simply basing this on your attitude and responses. Granted, it was late, so either of us could have been tired or in a situation of misunderstanding.

More than happy to discuss...So far we have a parable with the rich man and Lazarus and two visions...not much there to build on...

How about poor dead Samuel...was that him raised actually?...so he was retrieved from heaven or hell to do the bidding of a witch?

Naw more like a vision thingy...prolly from Satan despite its accuracy...Saul did die the next day...

...remember even pharoah’s magicians had powers to make staffs into snakes and to repeat some of the subsequent plagues...

Ok so again we die...body back to dust spirit from where it came and soul is “killed” until a more perfect reunion between dust and Yah’s spirit...

 

[iouae]

I think it would be better if we realign our focus onto the nature of the soul.

Now, here, you claim that my doubts are wrong. And that is fine; however, without evidence, proofs, and logic, your assertion is based on nothing except your own authority. And argument is not false just because someone else says it is.

And I think that is the issue with your entire posit. As I will try my best to demonstrate further down.

Where is your evidence of this? (I always accept Scriptural, as well as extra-biblical evidence, as long as it is logical in deduction)
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things: that your whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of faith to the saving of the soul.

Again, the multitude in Revelation 4 and 5 does not say "angelic" or "heavenly host." Any time angels are referenced, they are called "angels," "angelic," or "heavenly host." It does make sense for the author to specifically leave out such descriptive nomenclature for the Elders and the multitude, especially having used them before and after this section. This logically points to the Elders and multitude not being angels.

Let's start with the 4 beasts/living creatures which support a clear glass firmament on which God's throne sits above the stones of fire. Are they spirit beings or resurrected saints?

Eze 1:5
Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
Eze 1:6
And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

 

[iouae]

Next jsanford, do the seven spirits sound to you like a description of dead people?

Rev 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

And if beasts and spirits are clearly not raised saints, then the elders mentioned among them, why on earth would they be raised saints and not just part of heaven's population.

4 Beasts, 7 spirits, 24 elders, archangels Gabriel and Michael - all created spirits. To what end?

Heb 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?