iouae
Well-known member
I sense a trap here sanford
How does that verse work with immortal souls? If the dead are raised incorruptible, are you saying they are not really dead dead?
and yes, I agree Christ is God incarnate.
The Jesus Club
- Thread starter iouae
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I sense a trap here sanford
How does that verse work with immortal souls? If the dead are raised incorruptible, are you saying they are not really dead dead?
and yes, I agree Christ is God incarnate.
Yup you sure pegged me...and I work for these guys too...
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm
Next I will post some articles from Financial Times cuz I be a billionaire...
And then some articles from New England Journal of Medicine since I am a Doctor too...
And then some from the People’s Daily as I am a Chinese Communist...
iouae
Well-known member
Explain what you understand by "translation" PJ
jsanford108
New member
No trap. I just wanted to have an idea of your beliefs before mocking them. Just kidding.I sense a trap here sanford
I asked about Jesus as God to make sure we have some common ground. I wanted to make sure you did not believe in the immortal nature of souls, in order to be accurate in my inference of this.
Thus, here are my rebuttal questions to your beliefs against immortal souls:
Where are Moses, Enoch, and Elijah?
Who are the Elders and saints in Revelation 4 and 5, keeping in mind that these depicted events occur before the final judgement and trumpets?
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iouae
Well-known member
Let's look at where the "soul" is first mentioned.
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
So we have dust + breath (O2) = soul.
There is no spirit component mentioned here. The "immortal" soul idea is a lie from Satan - "Thou shalt not surely die".
Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
So we have dust + breath (O2) = soul.
There is no spirit component mentioned here. The "immortal" soul idea is a lie from Satan - "Thou shalt not surely die".
Again Lazarus was dead and stinking and in hell or heaven for 4days...either reward or punishment was interrupted...not a peep of his account either way...imagine what a saint he must have repented to become had he been in hell...what a witness and testimony with His book “My Four Days In HELL”....His circuit tours with “ok everybody seriously! you best believe mmmkay? I was there!!”
iouae
Well-known member
I quickly reread Rev 4 and 5 and no mention of saints.
The 24 elders are spirit counsellors who surround God's throne and give Him advice at times, or go to do His bidding. These are not humans.
Off the top of of head, a change, a new state of being. Even a new location.
jsanford108
New member
You are simplifying the Breath of God to a mere molecular structure. We know that the Breath of God must be more than just breathable air: Jesus breathed on the Apostles.
We know that the Breath of God must be beyond natural breathing and air, as it gives life, intelligence, emotion, etc. Could the Breath not be the source of the soul's creation?
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jsanford108
New member
But there are multitudes praising Jesus/God, around the throne. If it were Angels, it would have most likely said "heavenly host(s)."
Where do you get the affirmation of the Elders of Revelation as "spirit counsellors?" Why would God need advice?
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The book of Hebrews also provides us with a long list of names of people who are credited as great men and women of faith, who have not yet received the promise. The list of names includes people such as Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Moses, and tells us:
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth… And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. (Hebrews 11:13,39,40)
That last phrase, “that they should not be made perfect apart from us” is such an amazing hope for us, to know that those who lived before us are waiting for us, and we will all be made perfect together. They did not get a head-start in the afterlife. We will all be raised up together when Messiah returns.
http://www.unlearnthelies.com/understanding-life-after-death.html
iouae
Well-known member
Translated means to "remove from one place to another".
While I don't claim to be an expert on translation, I don't likewise believe PJ or anyone here can explain translation any better than I can since we have so little to go on.
If one can be translated or removed from one place to another, then one can also be removed from one time to another IMHO. Thus I believe they were removed from that place and time, and will reappear at the last trump, exactly like those who died.
The difference between them and those who die is that dying is a whole grim process, which some folks were blessed to avoid. But I do not believe they are alive in heaven. This verse proves it...
Jhn 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
If no man has ascended to heaven, then Enoch, Moses and Elijah are not there.
1 kings 22:19Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
Job 1 has heaven holding a council of sorts and even Satan shows up...
iouae
Well-known member
Here is an example of God seeking counsel from angels and spirit elders.
1Ki 22:19
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so
jsanford108
New member
Would it not make sense that these people viewed their reward "afar," due to having to wait for Jesus? Let us consider the Transfiguration. Those prophets were not "asleep." They were conversing.
Add onto this explanation; the graves opening up on Easter. This event, combined with the pre-Christ list (note there are no Apostles in this list) point to Jesus being the point at which souls are admitted into heaven.
Combine this with the souls mentioned in Revelation 4 and 5, and one can logically deduce that Christians are admitted to heaven upon death.
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iouae
Well-known member
Ha - you beat me to it.
Here is another case, I believe, that angels counsel God.
Mat 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Each new convert is assigned an angel. If the angel sees this new convert in danger of falling away (say due to offence) the angel rushes to the Father, and the Father's door is never closed to these angels. They counsel together, and the angel rushes back to save the little one from falling away.
jsanford108
New member
Agreed, at the time of John 3, Jesus had not died. So, at that time, I agree that no soul was in Heaven.
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jsanford108
New member
This is not "counsel" or "advice." This is a spirit volunteering for a quest.
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Ha - you beat me to it.
Good work...ha...Don’t forget Job 1...
Heaven is order and structure rank and hierarchy it makes sense there are many up there never having been down here...
iouae
Well-known member
I think you are approaching this from the point of view that when God asks advice, he already knows the answer.
Why would angels volunteer their opinions if after thousands of years they saw God ignore their advice.
When I read this account in heaven we have spirits each presenting a different idea to the Father, and He chooses one from them as the best idea.
1Ki 22:20
And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21