The Historical Jesus Never Existed

[patrick jane]

No. What i said was Hell Fire - My statement still stands true as the verse you quoted doesnt support the doctrine of Hell Fire, or Eternal Damnation -in the Bible- which was Zekes point that i responded to. The Lake of Fire which is clearly symbolic refers to something completey different to what youre infering.

OK, genius -

Matthew 25:41 KJV - Matthew 25:46 KJV -

Jesus' own words -

 

[Zeke]

There were many so called enightened men such as Buddha or Zoroaster, and religions that were established on this concept of enlightenment, piety and humanism that you allude to such as Hindusim, Janism and Buddhism. These examples predate Christianity considerably. Zoroastrianism is particularly ancient. NONE of them had the success that this one man Jesus did. If Jesus as you fallaciously claim is a lie how do you explain the global phenomena and success of Christianity which is unparalled by ANY religion past or present.

Matt 7:13. Most were converted by conquest like the natives of this once wild and unspoiled land until all that so called success happened to it, why do most follow this worlds system and serve two masters while claiming to be followers of Christ? and go die for Bankers and Elitist causes that keep the Hegelian Dialectic going to this day, why I would presume you have an ID that shows you are guilty of patronizing the fiction that is also very popular, so what! The facts you re-lie on are fraud just like that legal name persona which allows you to buy and sell, and again you so called followers of Christ don't want to even think about that dirty little secret now do ya?

 

[Zeke]

Thanks...But you might be pleased to know that Hell Fire is pagan in origin. Its not a teaching you'll find anywhere in the Bible.

I wouldn't blame the Pagans for it, Rome needed a program to put the fear of god in people so they extroverted its meaning, this life is the hell for the Divine soul stuck in a tomb of flesh Luke 15:45, presumed dead/ignorant spiritually, death being a state of mind Matt 8:22 which is an Egyptian teaching like a lot of Bible doctrines, plagiarized for you're conned-sumption.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

OK, genius -

Matthew 25:41 KJV - Matthew 25:46 KJV -

Jesus' own words -

Ok so putting aside the fact that the hell fire teaching is pagan in origin, how do you manage to square or rationalise your interpretation of those two scriptures when Ecclesiastes 9:5 says "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten."
Either the Bible is contradicting itself about the state of the dead and the Bible is wrong, ergo God is wrong....Or you're wrong. So how have you managed to harmonize ecclesiastes with your Hell Fire belief...

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Matt 7:13. Most were converted by conquest like the natives of this once wild and unspoiled land until all that so called success happened to it, why do most follow this worlds system and serve two masters while claiming to be followers of Christ? and go die for Bankers and Elitist causes that keep the Hegelian Dialectic going to this day, why I would presume you have an ID that shows you are guilty of patronizing the fiction that is also very popular, so what! The facts you re-lie on are fraud just like that legal name persona which allows you to buy and sell, and again you so called followers of Christ don't want to even think about that dirty little secret now do ya?

Can you just answer my question please? Thanks.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

I wouldn't blame the Pagans for it, Rome needed a program to put the fear of god in people so they extroverted its meaning, this life is the hell for the Divine soul stuck in a tomb of flesh Luke 15:45, presumed dead/ignorant spiritually, death being a state of mind Matt 8:22 which is an Egyptian teaching like a lot of Bible doctrines, plagiarized for you're conned-sumption.

The Hell Fire doctrine is much older than Rome. Its origins were in ancient Babylon.

 

[freelight]

It shows the blatant hypocrisy when they cry, "You're a cultist", "Your're a gnostic heretic", "You're an intentional blasphemer", and so on and so on. Yet when questioned about their own belief system sounding an awful lot like three gods in one they proclaim loudly that they only worship one God. Really? And such image files as the one from the previous page are acceptable to Calvinists while what was said to Lon, concerning only Lon, is considered intentional blasphemy? Is Lon therefore their God? The only things that might have been "blasphemed" were the words, deeds and practices of Lon. What is even worse is that the image file posted by Crucible clearly imagines that the Father is one of three faces in the diagram. Therefore in the carnal mind of the artist the Father is clearly imagined as a man.





But as I stated in the above original quote, WHO is the fourth God in the center of the Trinity War Shield? There be four Gods pictured in the Trinitarian War Shield just as there are four faces of Brahma and one is not often shown in the Hindu imagery:




"Oh no, we are not pagans like you; but you are a pagan because our mother church says so, and you are a gnostic heretic, a cultist, and whatever other evil names we can think of, and you are an intentional blasphemer of our God because we know that our IQ's are far superior to your peanut for a brain."

Yeah, nice talkin' to ya, Lonites, AMRites, and Calvinites, do keep me on ignore. :chuckle:

Brahma is one of my favorite Hindu deities

View attachment 24669

 

[freelight]

But as I stated in the above original quote, WHO is the fourth God in the center of the Trinity War Shield? There be four Gods pictured in the Trinitarian War Shield just as there are four faces of Brahma and one is not often shown in the Hindu imagery:

The 'fourth' God is the 'essence' - of the 3 personality-forms of God, existing as a compound unity Easy enough? :angel:

 

[daqq]

Brahma is one of my favorite Hindu deities

View attachment 24669

Perhaps that is why Trintites do not seem to like you, eh?
Perhaps deep inside you remind them too much of themselves.

The 'fourth' God is the 'essence' - of the 3 personality-forms of God, existing as a compound unity Easy enough? :angel:

In my experience the fourth God in the center of the War Shield always ends up being the bearer of the shield. The diagrams reveal why: that God is in the center and is therefore the "controller" or commander. How difficult would it be to avoid such imagery if you were going to make a diagram of what you thought represented the Trinitarian mindset? The reason it is difficult for most to avoid in either drawing such an icon or choosing such and icon is because they do not even realize that what they draw or what they choose to represent themselves is indeed what they really think and believe in the heart and mind. Therefore the truth concerning the doctrine and what is truly going on in the minds of both the artist and the admirer is perfectly displayed in the artwork or diagram. The outer three gods are merely "satellite gods" revolving around the world of the bearer of the shield. This is exactly how Esau man views his gods, that is, as useful tools for his own ways, means, and ends.

 

[daqq]

By the way, Esau man is hairy; but in Gen 27:11 it is sa`iyr like a shaggy goat devil:

Genesis 27:11
11 And Yaakob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy [H8163 sa`iyr] man, and I am a smooth man.

H8163 שָׂעִיר sa`iyr (saw-eer') adj.
שָׂעִר sa`ir (saw-eer')
1. shaggy.
2. (as noun) a he-goat.
3. (by analogy) a faun.
KJV: devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.
Root(s): H8175

Same as the tsaphiyr sa`iyr shaggy goat devil of Yavan, (Dan 8:21), which comes from the shades of the west not touching the ground, (Dan 8:5), like the prince of the power of the air, (Eph 2:2), who returns from the desert with seven other spirits more wicked than himself, (Luke 11:24-26), which makes him the eighth and of the seven, (Rev 17:11), and therefore the Esau "old man" nature is the leader of the left handed goats in the End, (Mat 25:33), that goes into destruction and αιωνιον fire prepared for the devil and his angels, (Mat 25:41). Just thought I would toss that into the mix since a few pages back PJ and I were discussing the shaggy twin goat Baal that every man has to deal with and since also some others have now been discussing hellfire which is clearly stated to have been prepared for the devil and his angels, (not literal people as you know). It is a whole different kind of, (Lev 16), Atonement from what the modern shepherds of the Triniton Titans are teaching.

 

[eider]

The Historical Jesus Never Existed

This was the Thread^^^^^^^^^^^
........ and of course the Historical Jesus did exist.

We've had quasi archeologists claiming that Nazareth was a myth, even writing books support their non-science. Any serious student of historical Jesus can trample that one. Try me?

The vast majority of Galilean people were working class peasants in the 1st (landholding) 2nd (Handworking) 3rd (Labouring) 4th (Service) and 5th (Begging/Needing) orders. There was no middle class. The working classes (mostly) could not write, and they therefore had a very accurate method of passing down their own histories through Oral-Tradition. This is important because the Gospel of Mark was in all probability based upon the memoirs of Cephas, put into writing before (or soon after) the end of his life, maybe by his friend Mark. Mark could well have been the youth who tore out of his clothing at the arrest of Jesus and ran free into thre night. Only he mentions this report in this book. Therefore the Book of Mark can be regarded as fairly accurate account of the life, movement and vocation of the Handworker from Nazareth Yeshua BarYosef, known later as Jesus.

Flavius Josephus was the Galilean Commander of the Jewish Forces, and so he knew many Galileans! His mention of Jesus in his memoirs is most interesting and those who claim that this was inserted into Josephus's writings fall flat on their faces against the simplestr of debates. The entry could have been edited or manipulated, but there was an original entry! Try me?

Jesus's meeting with John the Baptist, his knowledge of and friendship with the boatmen and lake officials, his mission and details of his travels and experiences fit so well that the account of G-Mark is sound. I know that additions were made to G-Mark, but these cannot confound the whole document.

Even stubborn enemies of Christianity would write about Jesus and the ten boatmen and two tax offiocials that were his closest followers! (Celcius). I think that Judas may well have been that second official since he was good at accounting and kept the group's money bag.

Obviously I'm writing as a student of historical Jesus, so I hope that I am not upsetting anybody from a theological point of view. The thread is about Historical Jesus, after all.

 

[Zeke]

Can you just answer my question please? Thanks.

The answer is so what! the history is based on christian bias and misinformation that won't pass the history lesson. Just because something is believed by the masses has no bearing on its viability spiritually speaking, which is why it is the broad road most stumble on has they stew in exclusive pride while wrongly discerning the universal nature of the Divine that laughs at you're less excellent way.

 

[Zeke]

The Hell Fire doctrine is much older than Rome. Its origins were in ancient Babylon.

They certainly perverted its meaning and the teaching that you have yet to realize is internally experienced and none observable just like the Spirit teaches in Luke 17:20-21.

 

[Zeke]

Still can't discern that the stories are metaphysical lessons based on the kingdom of God that is "you" the carnal history is temporal and based on this worlds corruptible minds of men that follow their leaders, hoodwinked from birth to death about why they are really here which is to transcend the power of the mind that is you're slave masters control medium, instead of your'e mind being a help mate it has been turned against you and now dictates and manipulates you're life for the false gods of this world who majors in divisional programming, now go vote for them. .

 

[SonOfCaleb]

The answer is so what! the history is based on christian bias and misinformation that won't pass the history lesson. Just because something is believed by the masses has no bearing on its viability spiritually speaking, which is why it is the broad road most stumble on has they stew in exclusive pride while wrongly discerning the universal nature of the Divine that laughs at you're less excellent way.

If you're incapable of acknowledging much less understanding the history of Christanity and its global influence then this discussion is a waste of time for me, as you seem to have really bought into your own hubris as your response is mostly unintelligable.
Im not going to waste my time entertaining your flippant derisory responses as its self evident you dont have a clue what you're pontificating about much less a decent grasp on the subject matter your attempting to espouse.

 

[fzappa13]

I do think there was a Jew named Jesus. But be careful- the sources outside of the Christian holy books are generally from many years later. The Quran's mentioning Jesus doesn't prove anything besides that the legend of Jesus existed 600 years after his death.

Well, yes, of a necessity any extra-biblical account of Jesus would have to be after His death. That is unless you expect some other religious text to have prophesied His appearance ... and not all such references to Him are as recent as you suggest. Josephus being a case in point.

And given your chosen faith and field of study you should be well aware most mentions of Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud were redacted after prosecution of the Jews at the hand of the Roman Catholic church for being what they thought less than respectful of the individual in question in said tome.

 

[Zeke]

If you're incapable of acknowledging much less understanding the history of Christanity and its global influence then this discussion is a waste of time for me, as you seem to have really bought into your own hubris as your response is mostly unintelligable.
Im not going to waste my time entertaining your flippant derisory responses as its self evident you dont have a clue what you're pontificating about much less a decent grasp on the subject matter your attempting to espouse.

You're the one who claims to have the historic facts to back up you're claims as well, the research I have done is out there for all to study and decide for them selves, I once bought the same stuff you say is pure factual evidence when the record of history is mere hear say and a lot of assumption, yet you give me neg rep like a little emotional baby! must have hit a nerve, come back when you can understand what the Spirit clearly states about the kingdom of God and where it is located Luke 17:20-21, and then you might also grasps Galatians 4:20-28 and the two births that happen within you traditional veil wearer.

 

[fzappa13]

That scripture describes the SYMBOLIC Lake of Fire that death and also the Devil are hurled into. Death obviously cant be burned in a lake of fire. Thus its clear from the context of the scripture that the Lake of Fire is symbolic. Regardless the Lake of Fire is symbolic of the 'second death' of which there is no return. That verse doesn't support the belief in hell fire and a death of unending torement as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten." Therefore by the Bibles own admission 'Hell Fire' is clearly a [pagan] myth.

The eventual elimination of death and the need for the abode of the dead is one of the center pieces of the Christian faith. Though you may argue that this faith is errant to argue that these are not two of the tenets of the Christian faith is, well, just silly.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Though you may argue that this faith is errant to argue that these are not two of the tenets of the Christian faith is, well, just silly.

Really havent got a clue what point you're attempting to make here. I said Hell Fire is a pagan concept and not Christian in origin. What exactly is silly about that?

 

[SonOfCaleb]

You're the one who claims to have the historic facts to back up you're claims as well, the research I have done is out there for all to study and decide for them selves, I once bought the same stuff you say is pure factual evidence when the record of history is mere hear say and a lot of assumption, yet you give me neg rep like a little emotional baby! must have hit a nerve, come back when you can understand what the Spirit clearly states about the kingdom of God and where it is located Luke 17:20-21, and then you might also grasps Galatians 4:20-28 and the two births that happen within you traditional veil wearer.

I gave you a negative rep because your post frankly was complete nonsense. Post something good i up rep you. Post troll nonsense i down rep you. Quite simple really as thats the nature of a forum right...
Your posts read like the incoherent dishelleved rants littered with verbal acrobatics of opportunist theologians like Michael Schmaus. Big word here, non sequitur there and then a casual sprinkling of 'hegelianism' ,as you seem fond of this principle for some odd reason.

Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, and Josephus all mention Jesus and/or his Christian followers if you're interested in secular sources. In fact The New Encyclopaedia Britannica concluded: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.” This is a direct qoute from the NEB. Am i supposed to ignore the NEB, the works of Tactitus, Josephus etc for the casual ramblings of an internet anorak?