The Historical Jesus Never Existed

[chair]

Well, yes, of a necessity any extra-biblical account of Jesus would have to be after His death. That is unless you expect some other religious text to have prophesied His appearance ... and not all such references to Him are as recent as you suggest. Josephus being a case in point.

And given your chosen faith and field of study you should be well aware most mentions of Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud were redacted after prosecution of the Jews at the hand of the Roman Catholic church for being what they thought less than respectful of the individual in question in said tome.

The Koran and Talmud were written hundreds of years after the events. Not just "after his death". The source in Josephus (even if it wasn't a later insertion, which seems to be the case) is from 40 years later. And why is this statement true?

"of a necessity any extra-biblical account of Jesus would have to be after His death"​

My faith isn't exactly "chosen". And being Jewish isn't a "faith"
And what do you think my field of study is?

 

[fzappa13]

The Koran and Talmud were written hundreds of years after the events. Not just "after his death". The source in Josephus (even if it wasn't a later insertion, which seems to be the case) is from 40 years later. And why is this statement true?

"of a necessity any extra-biblical account of Jesus would have to be after His death"​

Well, I see your point. The three wise men had to have read something that brought them to Jerusalem looking for a particular baby.

My faith isn't exactly "chosen". And being Jewish isn't a "faith"

:rotfl:

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either you chose your faith or it was your birthright. Which is it?

And what do you think my field of study is?

Come now, don't be coy. You've done little else but hold forth on the subject of your faith since you have been here. That and argue against the Christian faith.

 

[fzappa13]

Really havent got a clue what point you're attempting to make here. I said Hell Fire is a pagan concept and not Christian in origin. What exactly is silly about that?

Sure you do. That's why you carved out the germane part of my post when responding to it.

 

[chair]

Well, I see your point. The three wise men had to have read something that brought them to Jerusalem looking for a particular baby.

:rotfl:

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either you chose your faith or it was your birthright. Which is it?

Who said anything about "having it two ways"?
Being Jewish is not a "faith". For most people it is not a choice either.

Come now, don't be coy. You done little else but hold forth on the subject of your faith since you have been here. That and argue against the Christian faith.

Excuse me. Perhaps you haven't noticed? This is a religion site. A Christian one. Religion is what we discuss here. It is not "my field of study".

 

[Zeke]

I gave you a negative rep because your post frankly was complete nonsense. Post something good i up rep you. Post troll nonsense i down rep you. Quite simple really as thats the nature of a forum right...
Your posts read like the incoherent dishelleved rants littered with verbal acrobatics of opportunist theologians like Michael Schmaus. Big word here, non sequitur there and then a casual sprinkling of 'hegelianism' ,as you seem fond of this principle for some odd reason.

Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, and Josephus all mention Jesus and/or his Christian followers if you're interested in secular sources. In fact The New Encyclopaedia Britannica concluded: “These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.” This is a direct qoute from the NEB. Am i supposed to ignore the NEB, the works of Tactitus, Josephus etc for the casual ramblings of an internet anorak?

Like I said the forgeries like Josephus are all you have to base you're carnal Jesus on through mental programming by the system that has you hooked on some coming carnal kingdom (Acts 17:24) which is Babylon there all CAPS NAME strawman! wake up .

 

[Zeke]

 

[Zeke]

Yada Yada etc..........................................

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Sure you do. That's why you carved out the germane part of my post when responding to it.

Erm no i don't, thats why i highlighted it. :think: So why dont you elucidate for me and let me know what your point is...

Though you may argue that this faith is errant to argue that these are not two of the tenets of the Christian faith is, well, just silly.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

forgeries like Josephus

:crackup: ok mate.

 

[Crucible]

Really havent got a clue what point you're attempting to make here. I said Hell Fire is a pagan concept and not Christian in origin. What exactly is silly about that?

Jesus used the local garbage system, the Valley of Hinnom, to illustrate the reality of Hell. It is not a pagan concept, it just isn't a revelation which occurs in the OT. It occurs in the New.

Hell has never been challenged for as long as Christianity has been around, including even heretics or those who went against the Church.
No- it wasn't until this new age monstrosity of liberal thinking that all of a sudden it is challenged. And by a very few, with nonsense alternatives.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Jesus used the local garbage system, the Valley of Hinnom, to illustrate the reality of Hell. It is not a pagan concept, it just isn't a revelation which occurs in the OT. It occurs in the New.

Hell has never been challenged for as long as Christianity has been around, including even heretics or those who went against the Church.
No- it wasn't until this new age monstrosity of liberal thinking that all of a sudden it is challenged. And by a very few, with nonsense alternatives.

It is most certainly a pagan concept which is a known fact. And its also mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures which Jeremiah testifys to at Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart." Through his prophet Jeremiah God expressed his own repugnance for this ancient pagan practice. God hated this practice so he's obviously not going to condone the Christendom pagan adoption and teaching of Hell Fire when he expressly condemned it in Jeremiah.
In addition Hell Fire was taught by Greek philosophers Centurys before Jesus birth. Theres a wealth of secular evidence proving the pagan origins of Hell Fire which also prove its not Christian in origin.

Hell Fire was not a Christian teaching that the early Christians of 1AD were familiar with. Doubtless they may have been aware of the pagan teaching from Hellenic Philosophy or the pagan semitic customs of the East but the Christians of 1AD absolutely did not teach about Hell Fire. Hell or Sheol rather as it was known by the Jews in Hebrew simply referred to the common grave and not a place of fiery torment.

Regardless Jesus symbolic use of the word Gehenna -which refered to the Valley of Hinnom or Geh Hin·nom- wasnt to denote nor support this pagan philsophy. Jesus used the word Gehenna as symbolic of complete destruction. This is why Gehenna also parallels the symbolic Lake of Fire.
It should also be noted the literal Gehenna which was a rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem wasnt used to torture victims (although it was used by Judean Kings Ahaz and Manasseh for human sacrifices by fire to Baal). Rather it was used to despose of refuse inluding dead bodies.

 

[fzappa13]

Erm no i don't, thats why i highlighted it. :think: So why dont you elucidate for me and let me know what your point is...

You are openly disingenuous. There is no point for me to continue. Enjoy your short stay here.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

You are openly disingenuous. There is no point for me to continue. Enjoy your short stay here.

You're a terrible mind reader. And this is a thoroughly ridiculous response. This is a forum. I've asked you twice to explain what you meant and now your making false accusations about my genuineness? You're right I'm wasting my time with you.

 

[Zeke]

 

[Zeke]

 

[freelight]

Josephus mention of 'Christians'.......

Josephus mention of 'Christians'.......

This is another significant issue mentioned in the above video, that Josephus, except in the controversial 'testimonium flavianium'(TF), either a partial or whole forgery, makes no mention of any religious group called 'christians', while he devoted much to the study of the religious groups of his day, the 3 principle Jewish sects being the Pharisees, Saducees and the Essenes.

Besides more problems, even if the obvious Christian interpolations were taken out the TF, and Jesus was actually mentioned by Josephus...such is not an eyewitness account since he was born in 37 CE...and the Antiquities of the Jews was written 60 years after Jesus was supposed to have died.

What is odd is why Josephus does not write anything more of Christians (or Jesus), if they were becoming more popular and numerous with all the reported miracles, conversions, etc. By this time the gospels are claimed to have been written and circulated as well. Also of note is there is no mention by Philo of Alexandria about 'christians', although he wrote extensively about the Essenes and a related group of 'Therapeutae', The latter later being assumed to be Christian monks of a sort, but this ties in some early evolutions of Jewish communities of a more ascetic nature and how they morphed into what were seen as earlier 1st century Christian groups, such as the Nazarenes, Ebionites, followers of the Way, etc.

Josephus on Jesus (wiki)

Josephus on Jesus (jesusneverexisted site)

 

[iouae]

To keep from derailing another thread. No serious scholar or academic questions the historicity of the person of Jesus Christ. The video is wrong, there are about 10 other sources that mention the Lord Jesus Christ. Even the Quran speaks of His actual existence. Zeke, you are paying attention to men with no credibility. That is the elephant in the room. It is television mockumentary for $$$ and fame. Some of these guys might be as persuaded by this nonsense as you are - they are nothing new, and not at all novel. They die off or fade away because nobody pays attention to conspiracy theorists on 'how' something might/could/perhaps happen. It is un-academic conjecture.

The short of it: Don't listen to gossip and never believe it. Exodus 23:1 Proverbs 16:28 Proverbs 26:20 1 Timothy 5:13 Titus 3:1-3

If one wants to make a documentary about Jesus and get it aired, you have to "prove" that he was married, of had children, or did not really die, or make some equally outrageous claim. Everyone knows there was a historical Jesus.

 

[Zeke]

To keep from derailing another thread. No serious scholar or academic questions the historicity of the person of Jesus Christ. The video is wrong, there are about 10 other sources that mention the Lord Jesus Christ. Even the Quran speaks of His actual existence. Zeke, you are paying attention to men with no credibility. That is the elephant in the room. It is television mockumentary for $$$ and fame. Some of these guys might be as persuaded by this nonsense as you are - they are nothing new, and not at all novel. They die off or fade away because nobody pays attention to conspiracy theorists on 'how' something might/could/perhaps happen. It is un-academic conjecture.

The short of it: Don't listen to gossip and never believe it. Exodus 23:1 Proverbs 16:28 Proverbs 26:20 1 Timothy 5:13 Titus 3:1-3

No serious scholar of this world would dare expose the fraud I agree , no more than a temple bar lawyer would expose the legal charade/fiction you patronize, strawman/afterbirth/impersonation/=baby-lon spiritually [video]http://xyz.us12.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b1fb089f93e6e74d8ba1d56de&id=54fa3f8c26&e=549eae43a3[/video]

 

[patrick jane]

No serious scholar of this world would dare expose the fraud I agree , no more than a temple bar lawyer would expose the legal charade/fiction you patronize, strawman/afterbirth/impersonation/=baby-lon spiritually [video]http://xyz.us12.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=b1fb089f93e6e74d8ba1d56de&id=54fa3f8c26&e=549eae43a3[/video]

You're a conspiracy theorist Zeke?

 

[Zeke]

This is another significant issue mentioned in the above video, that Josephus, except in the controversial 'testimonium flavianium'(TF), either a partial or whole forgery, makes no mention of any religious group called 'christians', while he devoted much to the study of the religious groups of his day, the 3 principle Jewish sects being the Pharisees, Saducees and the Essenes.

Besides more problems, even if the obvious Christian interpolations were taken out the TF, and Jesus was actually mentioned by Josephus...such is not an eyewitness account since he was born in 37 CE...and the Antiquities of the Jews was written 60 years after Jesus was supposed to have died.

What is odd is why Josephus does not write anything more of Christians (or Jesus), if they were becoming more popular and numerous with all the reported miracles, conversions, etc. By this time the gospels are claimed to have been written and circulated as well. Also of note is there is no mention by Philo of Alexandria about 'christians', although he wrote extensively about the Essenes and a related group of 'Therapeutae', The latter later being assumed to be Christian monks of a sort, but this ties in some early evolutions of Jewish communities of a more ascetic nature and how they morphed into what were seen as earlier 1st century Christian groups, such as the Nazarenes, Ebionites, followers of the Way, etc.

Josephus on Jesus (wiki)

Josephus on Jesus (jesusneverexisted site)

Yea the prechristian sects hold the key to grasping from where the doctrinal foundation of the christian dogma was built on, yet claim copy rights to ancient stories they perverted into carnal his-story. Lon assertions of $$$$$$ as the motive is hilarious compared to the monetary machine of theological sales men who have fleeced the flock with the same type of dogmatic scholars who imprisoned Galileo as a heritic, these are baby-lon's hero's and trust worthy as a fox in the hen house.