The Historical Jesus Never Existed

[daqq]

What would Baal be doing in the third heaven?

Ahah, at that point he is about to go into destruction, (and when he is cast out into your Land he knows that his time is short). Then shall you be rightly divided; and you shall render unto Caesar the things of Ceasar, and unto Elohim, the things of Elohim. But you will have a thorn in the flesh: fear not, for the Grace of Elohim is sufficient for you to finish your half of the race!

2 Corinthians 12:1-4
1 I must needs glory, though it is not expedient, (not for myself, but expedient for you), so I come to visions and revelations of YHWH.
2 I know an anthropon-man prior to fourteen years in Messiah; whether in body, I know not; or whether out of body, I know not, (Elohim knows), a certain one (τοιουτον character-entity) caught up unto the third heaven.
3 ALSO I know a certain one, (τοιουτον character-entity), whether in body, or apart from the body, I know not, (Elohim knows),
4 How that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words which it is not lawful for an anthropo-man-faced to utter.

Beware of the anthropon-man-faced: for they will deliver you up to the sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; and you shall be brought before governors and kings for the sake of the name and Testimony of Yeshua, for a testimony against them and the heathen. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you, (cf. Matthew 10:17-20). Beware of the leaven of Herod, and of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of the Sadducs, (that is to say their doctrines). The kingdom of the heavens is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal until the whole lump was leavened. And who shall live when God does this? Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his soul shall destroy it; and whosoever shall lose his soul shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be a duo in one bed; the one shall be received up near, and the other shall be sent away, (into destruction).

 

[freelight]

Images...............

Images...............

I suppose the point to you is that even though your fellow Calvinites, AMR and Lon, will not accuse you of "intentional blasphemy", (as Lon did me for telling him the truth and cut me off between the naos and the altar by cutting off my voice in the other thread), you do reveal in the following graven image file which you posted in another thread that you worship what you imagine is a "God-Man" in the imagination of your mind:

Well,...a 3 headed Jesus verges pretty close to some mythological image or 'idol',....looks kinda errie don't you think? I don't have too major a problem with a trinitarian concept of Deity, since my explorations include concepts that transcend and extend beyond the particular christian-orthodox concept of a 'Trinity' (the Urantia Book's 'Paradise Trinity' is even more cosmically wonderful and exalted), but a 3 headed Jesus, come on folks (speaking of 'visual effects').

 

[daqq]

Well,...a 3 headed Jesus verges pretty close to some mythological image or 'idol',....looks kinda errie don't you think? I don't have too major a problem with a trinitarian concept of Deity, since my explorations include concepts that transcend and extend beyond the particular christian-orthodox concept of a 'Trinity' (the Urantia Book's 'Paradise Trinity' is even more cosmically wonderful and exalted), but a 3 headed Jesus, come on folks (speaking of 'visual effects').

It shows the blatant hypocrisy when they cry, "You're a cultist", "Your're a gnostic heretic", "You're an intentional blasphemer", and so on and so on. Yet when questioned about their own belief system sounding an awful lot like three gods in one they proclaim loudly that they only worship one God. Really? And such image files as the one from the previous page are acceptable to Calvinists while what was said to Lon, concerning only Lon, is considered intentional blasphemy? Is Lon therefore their God? The only things that might have been "blasphemed" were the words, deeds and practices of Lon. What is even worse is that the image file posted by Crucible clearly imagines that the Father is one of three faces in the diagram. Therefore in the carnal mind of the artist the Father is clearly imagined as a man.

I suppose the point to you is that even though your fellow Calvinites, AMR and Lon, will not accuse you of "intentional blasphemy", (as Lon did me for telling him the truth and cut me off between the naos and the altar by cutting off my voice in the other thread), you do reveal in the following graven image file which you posted in another thread that you worship what you imagine is a "God-Man" in the imagination of your mind:

Actually one of your own recently posted an image file in another thread that shockingly sums up pretty much what the both of you believe. It even shows the famous Scutum Fidei Trinitarian war shield that Apple7 sports for an avatar.

The only question is who is the fourth God in the center of the shield?
It invariably ends up being the bearer of the shield. :chuckle:

When in reality it is much more likely Yohanan the Immerser whom you make into a God-Man: for it was Yohanan who ate butter, treetop dew, and wild honey of the field from the tip of his staff, prefigured in the story of Yonathan-Yohanan the son of Shaul whose "soul was knit together" with the soul of David the king, (1Samuel 14:27).

But as I stated in the above original quote, WHO is the fourth God in the center of the Trinity War Shield? There be four Gods pictured in the Trinitarian War Shield just as there are four faces of Brahma and one is not often shown in the Hindu imagery:

Brahma - The Creator
Brahma is considered as the first god of the Hindu Trinity, the other being Vishnu and Shiva. Lord Brahma is recognized as the creator of the Universe. Brahma is regarded as the Supreme Being, the god of gods. Lord Brahma is the originator and the generator of the mankind. Brahma symbolizes the universal mind, as creation is the work of the mind and the intellect. If we consider this, from an individual's point, Brahma represents one's own mind and intellect. As an individual is god gifted with the mind and intellect, then it may be assumed that a person has already attained Brahma. This could be the possible reason that worship of Brahma is not so popular among the Hindu people. However, he is worshipped by seekers of knowledge, such as students, teachers, scholars and scientists.

Lord Brahma - The Image
Hindu God Brahma can be seen as a four-faced, four-armed, bearded deity. He carries a rose and a book in the upper hand; a water pot (Kamandala) in the lower hand and one hand is always there to bestow grace. The four faces represent the holy knowledge of the four Vedas (Riga, Yajur, Sama and Atharva). It symbolizes that Brahma is the foundation of all the knowledge required for the creation of the universe. The four arms represent the four directions and therefore symbolize that Lord Brahma is the omnipresent and the omnipotent.
http://www.iloveindia.com/spirituality/gods/brahma.html

"Oh no, we are not pagans like you; but you are a pagan because our mother church says so, and you are a gnostic heretic, a cultist, and whatever other evil names we can think of, and you are an intentional blasphemer of our God because we know that our IQ's are far superior to your peanut for a brain."

Yeah, nice talkin' to ya, Lonites, AMRites, and Calvinites, do keep me on ignore. :chuckle:

 

[Crucible]

The Trinity is a universal doctrine which the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Protestant churches all share. There were a vestige of heretics through the ages, particularly in the earlier centuries, whose heresies have recently returned in modern times.

The Trinity is the reconciliation of the Son, Father, and Spirit's being. The Bible is contradictory without it, whereas any verse you'd like to put up can be easily explained otherwise. There's a reason why anti-trinitarians ended up on the losing stick, and it wasn't because of some desire for others to hold on to paganism, it's because when you put Isaiah's text next to the apostle's, it's inevitable.

But you all will never concede to it because you've either brainwashed yourselves too well or you have to much pride to admit you're wrong.

 

[daqq]

The Trinity is a universal doctrine which the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Protestant churches all share. There were a vestige of heretics through the ages, particularly in the earlier centuries, whose heresies have recently returned in modern times.

The Trinity is the reconciliation of the Son, Father, and Spirit's being. The Bible is contradictory without it, whereas any verse you'd like to put up can be easily explained otherwise. There's a reason why anti-trinitarians ended up on the losing stick, and it wasn't because of some desire for others to hold on to paganism, it's because when you put Isaiah's text next to the apostle's, it's inevitable.

But you all will never concede to it because you've either brainwashed yourselves too well or you have to much pride to admit you're wrong.

What you say is neither here nor there because it is nothing more than your opinion. The same exact things can be said of Trinitarianism and whatever your version of it might claim as truth: "You all will never concede to it because you've either brainwashed yourselves too well or you have too much pride to admit you're wrong." See? It works just as well against you as it does for you in the imagination of your mind.

 

[Crucible]

What you say is neither here nor there because it is nothing more than your opinion. The same exact things can be said of Trinitarianism and whatever your version of it might claim as truth: "You all will never concede to it because you've either brainwashed yourselves too well or you have too much pride to admit you're wrong." See? It works just as well against you as it does for you in the imagination of your mind.

Muslims hold that Jesus is not God, but a co-prophet of Mohammad. They reject his divinity and that is why they operate the way they do- because if he's not God than he does not have the authority that Christianity upholds him with.

You might want to try Islam :idunno:

 

[Bright Raven]

Muslims hold that Jesus is not God, but a co-prophet of Mohammad. They reject his divinity and that is why they operate the way they do- because if he's not God than he does not have the authority that Christianity upholds him with.

You might want to try Islam :idunno:

Why would anyone want to try the God of bloodshed over the God of love?

 

[daqq]

Muslims hold that Jesus is not God, but a co-prophet of Mohammad. They reject his divinity and that is why they operate the way they do- because if he's not God than he does not have the authority that Christianity upholds him with.

You might want to try Islam :idunno:

Why do I need Islam when I have the Torah? You would send me to Islam?
It is you who might want to try the Word of the Father:

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 KJVRN (Restored Name KJV)
18:15 YHWH thy Elohim will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of YHWH thy Elohim in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of YHWH my Elohim, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
18:17 And YHWH said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other elohim, even that prophet shall die.
18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which YHWH hath not spoken?
18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of YHWH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which YHWH hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Because your version of Messiah is disqualified.

 

[Crucible]

Why would anyone want to try the God of bloodshed over the God of love?

You can't have it both ways- worshiping and praying to Jesus but saying he is not God is ridiculous.

Muslims operate under the Old Law still because they reject the divinity of Jesus- it comes with the package.

 

[Bright Raven]

You can't have it both ways- worshiping and praying to Jesus but saying he is not God is ridiculous.

Of course Jesus is God. There is no other choice.

 

[freelight]

Of course Jesus is God. There is no other choice.

That's what you've chosen to believe or assume. There are certainly other viewpoints and concepts of Jesus.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Yes as we noted earlier,....whether Jesus was a real historical person or a pure myth or some mixture thereof,....Jesus STILL only exists in your own mind, and that goes for any concept of 'God' you are holding. - so what is being debated or considered is how we interpret the Jesus-story or what concept or theology (add your own Christology) we adopt to fit 'Jesus' INTO. - and still so many 'salvation-concepts' and 'plans' are charted out and believed in, among so many sects and denominations. 2/3 of our world's population does NOT identify as 'christian' as it is, so these people are referencing 'God' or 'reality' as they know it by their own cultural or religious context, with various conditioning.

Records or statements outside the bible affirming the existence of Jesus are debatable, some interpolations, forgeries or statements so many decades after the public knowledge of 'chrestians' (oops or is that 'Christians' ) existing, so that such is just reporting 'heresay', - we can research and consider those.

I don't agree. And i think your position is largely a philosophical one. Jesus by secular accounting was a very unremarkable individual. Likewise the same is true of the Jewish peoples who by secular standards were a non-descript and historically insignificant pastoral tribe. The chances of the experience of the Jews and Jesus as the Messiah changing irrevocably the history and destiny of the entire planet is completely improbable. And yet it happened. A religion was started in his name. Wars have been fought in his name. Governments and power have been created in his name. Not even the impperial might of Rome was able to prevent the spread of infant Christianity, many Christians dying for their faith in this man Jesus as Christian martyrs.
No sensible persons would do this on a basis of a myth or a 'God concept' thats essentially a figment of their imagination/conciousness. And certainly not on the scale that happened in 1AD where Christians were dying in their 10s of thousands.

We could spend alot of time debating semantics and having an academic discussion about the historicity of Jesus but bearing in mind the improbability of the movement this man started its very safe to say he certainly couldnt exist solely in the minds of the individuals who claimed to be his adherents. Faith requires evidence and proof. Theres no movement in the history of mankind that has resulted in the success Christianity has enjoyed that was based on a myth or blind faith.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

I believe Jesus represented the spirit that is birthed in us, the historical sacrifice is a evil twist on the Esoteric death and birth that happens within, like I said if you think Galatians 4:20-28 represent two siblings instead of our two states then you are blinded by the observable fraud that pushed that carnal Christ lie.

There were many so called enightened men such as Buddha or Zoroaster, and religions that were established on this concept of enlightenment, piety and humanism that you allude to such as Hindusim, Janism and Buddhism. These examples predate Christianity considerably. Zoroastrianism is particularly ancient. NONE of them had the success that this one man Jesus did. If Jesus as you fallaciously claim is a lie how do you explain the global phenomena and success of Christianity which is unparalled by ANY religion past or present.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

One thing for sure I won't be condemning anyone to eternal fire and brimstone if you disagree, unlike most of the christian carnalized dogma that loves it literal hell.

Thanks...But you might be pleased to know that Hell Fire is pagan in origin. Its not a teaching you'll find anywhere in the Bible.

 

[patrick jane]

Thanks...But you might be pleased to know that Hell Fire is pagan in origin. Its not a teaching you'll find anywhere in the Bible.

Revelation 21:8 KJV -

and there are many more verses -

 

[exminister]

There were many so called enightened men such as Buddha or Zoroaster, and religions that were established on this concept of enlightenment, piety and humanism that you allude to such as Hindusim, Janism and Buddhism. These examples predate Christianity considerably. Zoroastrianism is particularly ancient. NONE of them had the success that this one man Jesus did. If Jesus as you fallaciously claim is a lie how do you explain the global phenomena and success of Christianity which is unparalled by ANY religion past or present.

Islam a younger religion and has 1.6 billion followers. That is a phenomenon and a real parallel.
It's a bad religion so I don't choose growth and size of a religion to indicate anything special.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Revelation 21:8 KJV -

and there are many more verses -

That scripture describes the SYMBOLIC Lake of Fire that death and also the Devil are hurled into. Death obviously cant be burned in a lake of fire. Thus its clear from the context of the scripture that the Lake of Fire is symbolic. Regardless the Lake of Fire is symbolic of the 'second death' of which there is no return. That verse doesn't support the belief in hell fire and a death of unending torement as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten." Therefore by the Bibles own admission 'Hell Fire' is clearly a [pagan] myth.

 

[patrick jane]

That scripture describes the SYMBOLIC Lake of Fire that death and also the Devil are hurled into. Death obviously cant be burned in a lake of fire. Thus its clear from the context of the scripture that the Lake of Fire is symbolic. Regardless the Lake of Fire is symbolic of the 'second death' of which there is no return. That verse doesn't support the belief in hell fire and a death of unending torement as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten." Therefore by the Bibles own admission 'Hell Fire' is clearly a [pagan] myth.

Personally I don't believe in eternal conscience torment and burning in hell forever, but you said the Bible doesn't contain verses about it - the Bible says they WILL HAVE their part in the lake of fire and brimstone -

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Islam a younger religion and has 1.6 billion followers. That is a phenomenon and a real parallel.
It's a bad religion so I don't choose growth and size of a religion to indicate anything special.

Im afraid its not. While Islam was responsible during the Middle Ages for a significant portion of Western 'enlightenment' its success pales into insignificance when compared to Christianity. Historically, culturally, socially, even poitically Christianity is embedded in every facet of the human experience since 1AD, and especially that of Western societys who owe their civil advancements entirely to this Eastern religion. Even Islam recognises the importance of Jesus venerating him as one of their prophets.
Much is known about the life of Jesus as recorded in the Bible. The history of Jesus and the Jews and Mohammed couldnt be more dissimilar. In many regards Mohammeds history is distinctly opaque from a Koranic and secular point of view. In fact Islam has leant heavily from Christianity with the Koran copying almost verbatim passages directly from the Christian Bible

The success in terms of growth and numbers is very important. As no movement especiall one based on humanism would be able to experience so much adoption and success unless there were fundamental truths that were part of the religions origin.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Personally I don't believe in eternal conscience torment and burning in hell forever, but you said the Bible doesn't contain verses about it - the Bible says they WILL HAVE their part in the lake of fire and brimstone -

No. What i said was Hell Fire -

"Its not a teaching you'll find anywhere in the Bible."

My statement still stands true as the verse you quoted doesnt support the doctrine of Hell Fire, or Eternal Damnation -in the Bible- which was Zekes point that i responded to. The Lake of Fire which is clearly symbolic refers to something completey different to what youre infering.