The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape, I am not saying that "Spirit baptism" is a form of typology. I am saying that the death, burial and resurrection to which Paul refers in Romans 6:1-4 is a form of typology, and that only water baptism can fulfil this typology.

To be honest, Evangelion, I don't know what the heck you're saying especially when Romans 6:4 is definitely talking about "Spirit Baptism."

Agape - I didn't address the verses you supplied when you first replied to my question because they did not answer my question. Now, are you going to explain to me why you think Paul has used the symbolism of death, burial and resurrection? If so, can I expect you to show me how "Spirit baptism" fulfils this symbolism? Remember - I need to see a direct, one-to-one correspondence for each of the three stages.

Sigh...I already gave them to you. Sorry, Evangelion, I'm not going to waste my time any longer with your silly little games of "typology" and your poor excuse of not referring to the verses I gave you because they do answer your questions.

I find your views on "water" baptism to be be just that...all wet.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Evangelion,

You said that you wanted someone to explain the parable of the sheep,but now you do not want to have anything to do with it.

Here are the words of the Lord:

"And I give unto them eternal life,and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.My Father,Who gave them to Me..."(Jn.10:29).

And we can indeed see that the Father has indeed given some to the Lord Jesus:

"And this is the Father´s will Who hath sent Me,that of all that He HATH given Me I should lose nothing,but should raise it up the last day"(Jn.6:39).

Of those that are given to Him by the Father the Lord says."I should lose nothing."

And for those who would deny those plain words,consider the following:

"All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me;and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out"(Jn.6:37).

I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT!

And we can see that of the sheep that were given to Him by the Father shall never perish:

"And I give unto them eternal life,and they shall never perish"(Jn.10:28).

We see that you wanted to discuss the parable of the sheep.Now it is your time to answer.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

We are saved by faith alone, by confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus and by believing in our hearts that God raised him from the dead. If one does not do this, and rejects the Lord Jesus as his savior will not be saved.

You say we are saved by faith alone, and then go on to include something that requires an action on our part - confessing Jesus with our mouth. Guess what, Agape... you've just included a work in the requirements for salvation. I thought "faith only" was enough.

Also, you did say we are saved by works when using Matthew 25 as an example stating they will go to hell because they did not do WORKS.

I said no such thing. For me to say that works saves us is for me to say that simply doing works saves us. I've never said that. You've gotta have faith that is alive with works, that's what saves, which is what I've been saying this entire time.

Either we are save by grace, faith alone or not.

I've already agreed that we are saved by grace. Where we disagree is what kind of faith is being spoken of in Ephesians 2:8. You say it's faith by itself, which is dead... you're claiming that a dead faith saves. I'm claiming it's a faith that is alive with works of obedience.

That's right...judgment day has absolutely no bearing on anyone who is already, saved, born again and has eternal life. We already have been judged. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins by his death. His resurrection brought us the new birth and eternal life. Don't you know the scriptures?? We also will be spared the future wrath because Jesus Christ will come for "his" church before the events recorded the Revelation will take place. We are already, spiritually speaking, seated in heavenly places. We have passed from death unto life. We are already joint-heirs with Christ. We have the "blessed hope" of Christ return for his church. We will meet him in the "air." Then, afterwards, he will return (and us with him) to earth when he actually sets his feet on Mount Olives.

I asked for a verse that supports the idea that judgement has nothing to do with salvation, and you give me your unsupported rhetoric. Try again. VERSE PLEASE.

In the parable spoken of in Matt. 25:41-46, Jesus specifically identified the reasons He was sending them to Hell. They were:

They did not feed the hungry/give drink to the thirsty

They did not take in strangers in need

They did not cloth the naked

They did not visit the sick and impisoned
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you are saying that Jesus sent them to hell because they did not do the above? And you say I need to pay attention.

Yes, I'm saying that Jesus sent them to hell because they didn't do the above, and yes, you need to pay closer attention. Jesus tells them in verse 41 to depart from Him and then goes on in verses 42-45 telling them WHY. It is because they didn't do the things listed above. Do you deny that the things listed in those verses are works?

It wasn't the works, because God already makes it clear in His Word that we are saved by faith alone and NOT BY WORKS...

Here's another example of you needing to pay closer attention to what you're reading. Ephesians 2:8 does not say that we are saved by grace through faith "alone" as you have added, rather it says that we are saved by grace through faith. You just don't understand what kind of faith is being spoken of here. Paul would never preach that a dead faith saves!

If the people in Matt. 25 DID do those works, yet had no faith in Christ, they would be doomed. We are not saved by works. We are saved by faith that is alive to God, not a faith that is dead to God.

The "parable" in Matthew has absolutely nothing to do with works for salvation except in your own mind. If they loved Jesus, then...then...then...they would have loved those who belonged to him.

That just goes to show that faith in Him and keeping His commandments are both needed. Jesus said that if we love Him, we are to keep His commandments. Therefore, one who does not do His commandments, does not love Christ. It is impossible to keep His commandments with faith only. Impossible. Faith only does not save.

They have faith but when no action is taken on it, there is no life to their faith, no fruit comes out of it, no profit. It is NOT SAYING they are not saved regarding salvation faith.

Just what do you think happens to people who don't bear fruit?

John 15:1-2
1) I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2) Every branch in Me that doesn not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

If you are taken away from Jesus, you will die. Simple. Bearing fruit in the eyes of God is most certainly a salvation issue. To be taken away from Jesus is certain death, and that verse clearly points out that we will be taken away from Him if we don't bear fruit.

And yes, the faith spoken of in James chapter 2 most certainly deals with salvation. For that very question was asked in verse 14.... "Can faith save him?". It's a salvation issue, and James answers that question by saying that faith alone is dead, and that just as they body without the spirit is dead, so is faith without works (verse 26).

 

[Evangelion]

Jerry -

You said that you wanted someone to explain the parable of the sheep

*snip*

I wanted someone to explain the parable of the sheep and GOATS. Why haven't you addressed it yet?

 

[Evangelion]

You're doin' fine, Kevin! :up: Fine work there with the parable of the sheep and goats!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Evangelion,

In the prophecy concerning the"sheep and the goats",we see the Lord saying that the "sheep" will inherit the kingdom.How willthey "inherit the kigdom"?

"He that OVERCOMETH shall INHERIT all things..."(Rev.21:7).

"To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with Me in My throne"(Rev.3:21).

And Scripture is not silent concerning how one OVERCOMES:

"For whosoever is born of God OVERCOMETH the world;and this is the victory that OVERCOMETH the world,even our FAITH.Who is he that OVERCOMETH the world,but he that BELIEVETH that Jesus is the Son of God?"(1Jn.5:4,5).

So it is by "faith" that the "sheep" will "inherit the kingdom".

Next,the Lord names some of the "fruit" that was prodced through their faith:

"For I was hungry,and you gave me food..."

But the "goats" will not have "faith",and they will not believe that the Lord Jesus is the "Son of God".Therefore,they will also have no "fruit".That is why the Lord will tell them:

"Depart from Me,ye cursed,into everlasting fire,prepared for the devil and his angels;For I was hungry,and ye gave me no food..."

The reason that the "goats"will go to "everlasting fire" is because of their lack of FAITH.

The "sheep"will inherit the kingdom because their faith overcame theworld.The "goats" will go to "everlasting fire" because they have no faith,and as a result they had no "fruits".

See.Evangelion,I answered that verse without reverting to cheap tricks.I answered and did not have to change the words as they are written.

Now,perhaps you will answer the parable of the sheep where the Lord Jesus is the Good Shepherd:

"And I give unto them eternal life,and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH...My,Father,Who gave them to Me"(Jn.10:28,29).

"And this is the Father´s will Who hath sent Me,that of ALL that He hath given Me I should LOSE NOTHING,but should raise it up again the last day"(Jn.6:39).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[c.moore]

Kevin said:
Something I previously overlooked about your "key" analogy. You have yet to scriptually prove that one would recieve the key to God's kingdom by faith only, which is taught as being a dead faith.


Quote c.moore
A good biblical proof of my analogy is : we are just,and you and I know that the just can enter in to heaven,
Ro:3:22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro:3:27: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro:3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro:4:3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ro:4:4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro:4:6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You recieve the Key to God Kingdom by faith only by hearing and believing his word.


Quote Kevin
God would not give the key to somebody who has not obeyed the command of baptism, because it is through baptism that we put the old man of sin away, and walk in the newness of life. It is at that point that we have been given the key to His kingdom. How can one have the key to the kingdom of God without putting away his old man of sin?

Quote c.moore
Like I said before , you can`t put the cart before the horses.

You still have not answered by question directly, does the work of water baptism come before the spiritual baptism, yes ,or no??????????

I said before in the my key analogy that,The way I see that you believe is that the person giving you the key , and the free permission to eat in his store, is like you say first I must do what ever I can first before I get the permission, and key, like clean the man house ,toilets, clean the store from the outside,and everything that you can do for the man , and then maybe you might get the permission, and the key to stop from starving to death, buit by the time you do all this works first you will die while your working from starvation, so your concept doesn`t make sence, and this is for sure not the way of the Lord , and the way of the bible.

This is stress, and your doctrine what you teach in your group just causes alot of unsure obedience, because you never know if your works is completed, or if you did enough to please God, that why God gave Himself for us so we can trust His finished works that he did for us so we don`t have stress, and be depressed of not doing enough. This is why God gave us this gift of salvation, because he knows already we can never be righteous or justifyed to work for our salvation in any way.

agape, tryed to show this to you biblically , and with common sence the fact that you are teaching and understanding works, and baptism backwards, and putting the cart before the horses.

I have even learned something from what Agape said:Ephesians 2:10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are God's workmanship, created (a new creature) IN CHRIST...UNTO (with a view towards) good works.

I forgot about this verse , but I seen in the verse which I missed by my study, it says, (in ) Christ Jesus.
the next thing that was revealed was (before ordained), meaning before we can even do any good works or water baptismo rituals.

Agape also told you the facts that It the other way around. We are saved by faith alone and good works follow. Not saved by grace + good works for salvation.

For by grace are ye saved, through faith...not of works lest ye shall boast.

Ephesian 2:4,5,8,9:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

When I had A debate with the Mormons over this same subjects , they said the way we believe is to good to be true, and also to simple,because they are use to hard works, and struggling to prove thier rights to God and qualify th reach the highest heavens.
The higher you go the harder the works A person must do I think you and the mormons believe,"But " I am not calling you an mormon only I am trying to piont out my brother Kevin thereis a lack of knowledge in your faith.

Please Let God bless you, just recieve it only.

 

[JustAChristian]

More Assistance For Jerry.

More Assistance For Jerry.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

In His grace,--Jerry

JustAChristian,

You ask where it can be found that the Holy Spirit is a cleansing agent/element? "Elect...through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT..."(2Pet.1:2). "...because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRT..."(2Thess.2:13).

"...And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:11).

You fail to understand the word "sanctification". Let me give you Baker's Bible Dictionary accounting of this word.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology:
The generic meaning of sanctification is "the state of proper functioning." To sanctify someone or something is to set that person or thing apart for the use intended by its designer. A pen is "sanctified" when used to write. Eyeglasses are "sanctified" when used to improve sight. In the theological sense, things are sanctified when they are used for the purpose God intends. A human being is sanctified, therefore, when he or she lives according to God's design and purpose.

The Greek word translated "sanctification" (hagiasmos [aJgiasmov"]) means "holiness." To sanctify, therefore, means "to make holy." In one sense only God is holy (Isa 6:3). God is separate, distinct, other. No human being or thing shares the holiness of God's essential nature. There is one God. Yet Scripture speaks about holy things. Moreover, God calls human beings to be holy——as holy as he is holy (Lev 11:44; Matt 5:48; 1 Peter 1:15-16). Another word for a holy person is "saint" (hagios [a&gio"]), meaning a sanctified one. The opposite of sanctified is "profane" (Lev 10:10). As you can see, sanctification has to do with a purpose after salvation and not in the course of salvation.

First there is salvation and then the Holy Spirit set one apart for a holy mission and purpose. Not in order to save that person. Your references do not show the Holy Spirit to be a cleansing agent/element.

You ask where it is stated that the Word comes in the power of the Holy Spirit?

"...by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven..."(1Pet.1:12)

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only,but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit..."(1Thess.1:5).

Your term related to the assistance of the Holy Spirit whom Jesus promised he would send. I can accept this.

And yes, the Lord does place "conditions" on being His disciples, and this relates to our "service":

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your REASONABLE SERVICE"(Ro.12:1).

In regard to the "seal" of the Holy Spirit, the words of Paul are clear. The Christian is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit until he receives his immortal body. We know that a "seal" can be broken,but Paul is saying that that "seal" will NOT be broken. You say that it can be broken.Who is right?

Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

I trust this is the verse you are referring to. God places His seal, the mark of the Holy Spirit, in the spiritual character of all the redeemed, but the seal is only as permanent as the intent of the redeemed to continue in the commandments of Christ (John 8:31). To be otherwise is to make the statement of Christ a "moot" point. You did not read 1 John 2:1-17 well, did you?

And you say that there is no "indwelling prior to obedience".But obedience is a life-long process according to you who attempt to put the Christian under law. How could the Christian be indwelt during his life if the "obedience" needed for salvation does not end until death?

The word of God comes to the hearer and he/she reacts according to his/her will. (See the parable of the sower in Matthew 13). If there is a positive reaction to the word of God unto salvation (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:16), then the individual become a "temple of the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 6:19). As the temple of the Holy Spirit, there is spiritual indwelling.

And we see from Scripture that the Christian is "sanctified" by the Holy Spirit. How can a "water baptism" ever cleanse the soul from sin? You say that "water is the instrument of spiritual application placed by Christ."

Christ has appointed a place of cleansing from sins, NOT ME, and this is in the act of baptism (Acts 22:16). To say otherwise is to deny the act and result afforded to Paul in his baptism. Remember, water does not cleanse (1 Peter 3:21), but baptism does. But, it only cleanses if there is scriptural application, i.e. for the remission of sins.

But why would an "earthly, natural" element be the instrument to cleanse the sinner in a spiritual sense?

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." God makes the difference. The faithful walks by faith and not by sight (2 Cor. 5:7). We don't go around asking why, but we must believe in the promises of God for those in obedience to Christ (Heb. 5:8-9).

You are confusing "natural things" with "spiritual things" in spite of Paul ´s words to "compare spiritual things with spiritual"(1Cor.2:13).

I don't believe that I am in the realm of the "natural man". I believe I have a grasp on spiritual things, else how would I have been able to answer you as I have? I believe that if you would give some more consideration to the purpose of immersion for the remission of sins then you could have a better spiritual understanding.

Cleansing is present, but salvation is only potential to the one who endures.

JustAChristian

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

There is no need to copy and paste your other post. I only have so much time. I addressed agape on my lunch break.

Quote c.moore
A good biblical proof of my analogy is : we are just,and you and I know that the just can enter in to heaven,
Ro:3:22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro:3:27: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro:3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro:4:3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ro:4:4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro:4:6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You recieve the Key to God Kingdom by faith only by hearing and believing his word.

But you still don't seem to understand. Paul is not referring to a belief that is dead unto it's own. There is a difference between merely believing, and acting on one's belief. If a person acts upon their belief and obey's the gospel, their belief has saved them. But, if all they do is believe and nothing else, it will profit them nothing. Even the demons believe.

Like I said before , you can`t put the cart before the horses.

I'm not. Baptism is what allows up to be reborn and alive in Christ. Until that is established, salvation is not possible.

You still have not answered by question directly, does the work of water baptism come before the spiritual baptism, yes ,or no??????????

Your question doesn't make any sense. You seem to think that because water is involved in the baptism of the Lord that it somehow doesn't have a spiritual purpose. It does. It allows us to put away our old man of sin and walk in the spirit instead of the flesh.

I have even learned something from what Agape said:Ephesians 2:10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are God's workmanship, created (a new creature) IN CHRIST...UNTO (with a view towards) good works.

Yes, well, keep your learning cap on and come to the realization that we become "IN CHRIST" through baptism (Gal. 3:27). Unless you have been baptized into Christ, you can forget about Ephesians 2:10.

Agape also told you the facts that It the other way around. We are saved by faith alone and good works follow.

Agape told me the facts? *snicker* That was a good one, c.moore. Thanks for the laugh. All he's told me is that we are saved by faith alone, which is said to be a dead faith, and then, he tried to say that the faith spoken of in James 2 is not speaking of a faith that effects salvation. And you're listening to this guy?! If he took the time to read James 2, he would realize that it begs the very question which he claims is not relevant: "Can faith SAVE him?" (verse 14). Of course it has a bearing on our salvation! So you go right ahead and keep putting your confidence in somebody who is unsuccessfully trying to convince people that a dead faith saves (faith alone).

For by grace are ye saved, through faith...not of works lest ye shall boast.

Ephesian 2:4,5,8,9:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

Been dealt with. Read my arguements to Agape on this very issue.

When I had A debate with the Mormons over this same subjects , they said the way we believe is to good to be true, and also to simple,because they are use to hard works, and struggling to prove thier rights to God and qualify th reach the highest heavens.
The higher you go the harder the works A person must do I think you and the mormons believe,"But " I am not calling you an mormon only I am trying to piont out my brother Kevin thereis a lack of knowledge in your faith.

Hehe... the mormons said that? That's a pretty lame reason they gave.. that believing is "too easy". Of course that's not where I'm coming from. The Bible certainly teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. But the Bible goes on to explain what kind of "faith" that is being spoken of. James chapter 2, combined with some of the parables that Jesus spoke, along with many other places in the Bible, stresses the necessity of doing the Father's will, of keeping Christ's commandments, and obeying the gospel. C.Moore, it is utterly impossible to do, keep, or obey something without doing anything. Therefore action must be taken on our part to DO those things. Works. How can you "DO" the will of the Father, "KEEP" Christ's commandments, and "OBEY" the gospel without doing something?

 

[Kevin]

Evangelion,

You're doin' fine, Kevin! Fine work there with the parable of the sheep and goats!

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just AChristian,

You admit the the gospel comes with the Holy Spirit.With that in mind,consider the words of the Lord Jesus:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...the Words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

How clear can it be?

The Lord also said,"The hour is coming,and now is,when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God;and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:25).

It´s all about the Word and the Spirit.

And as you say,to "sanctify" means "to make something into a state of proper functioning." And when the sinner believes the gospel,that sinner must be put in proper order to be able to receive the Holy Spirit,because the Christian cannot be in a state of proper functioning without the indwellt Spirit.

Therefore,the act of sanctifying includes remmitting the sins of the believer,because without the remissions of the sins the Holy Spirit cannot indwell the believer.

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?And what communion hath light with darkness?"(2Cor.6:14).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you,that He would not hear"(Isa.59:2).

So the idea of the sinner being sanctified by the Spirit impies that he is cleansed from his sins by the Spirit.

Now you need to read Eph.1:13,14 over again.You seem to think that it is possible that the "seal" could be broken.But that is not what the Scriptures says.

It says that "ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit...until the redemption of the purchased possession"(Eph.1:13,14)..

There is no conditions attached in any way to this statement of fact.

It is stated the same way at another place,that by the Holy Spirit "ye are sealed UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION (Eph.4:30).

So we see that Scripture says that the believer is sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

You say that they might be sealed until then,and they might not.

Let me see,who should I believe?The Holy Scriptures or JustAChristian?

You just can´t add "conditions" when no conditions are there.That is adding to the Word of God.

And if you take the Scripture as it is written,then this verse alone establishes beyond a shadow of doubt that the Christian does in fact possess eternal security.

The Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of our immortal bodies.So there is no time that he is not sealed.Therefore,it is impossible that he could ever lose his salvation.

And you say that water does not clean,but baptism does.

Would you mind telling me what part of the things involved in the "rite of water baptism" actually does the cleansing,if it isn´t the water.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[c.moore]

Kevin you said:
But you still don't seem to understand. Paul is not referring to a belief that is dead unto it's own. There is a difference between merely believing, and acting on one's belief. If a person acts upon their belief and obey's the gospel, their belief has saved them. But, if all they do is believe and nothing else, it will profit them nothing. Even the demons believe.


Quote c.moore
I said before if we really believe, we will want to do God`s will, but I don`t do live works to believe and get saved.
Our salavation is not like on a normal job working to keep our jobs by doing all the commandment our boss wants,and working to get promotions,and raises.

another example or analogy of salvation being saved is like
you can also live without working, when you are on welfare, and when you Qualify for welfare, you know you will be payed any ways, so you have faith alone, or only in the welfare office to be payed to live, and of course you would be stupid ,and A fool if you don`t go and pick up your check, but nobody will says like you believe in your understanding of faith without works is dead ,that you go to the welfare office and say I believe I will get payed but I must do some kind of works for the welfare office before I can pick up the checks, so that my picking up the check will not be dead collections of what I beleive you will pay me.
This is what you believe , and teach Kevin , and if you think you are right in doing this same thing with God working to gain salvation by water baptism, and other things , then go ahead,but I would keep it A secret what you are working and doing, so that people don`t think you lost you mind.


peace

 

[AVmetro]

*sigh*

*sigh*

I just love to see satan undermine the entire work of Christ on the cross. True fingerprint of the cultist.....wish I had some time to participate.....Mmmmmm..maybe later.....

God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
John 15:1,2:
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

If you are taken away from Jesus, you will die. Simple. Bearing fruit in the eyes of God is most certainly a salvation issue. To be taken away from Jesus is certain death, and that verse clearly points out that we will be taken away from Him if we don't bear fruit.

Is that what it says? You will die? No, that is not what it states. It says "it will be taken away," which means it will be "lifted up."

According to Bullinger's Figure of Speech Used In the Bible, p13, verse 2 is the figure of speech: Ellipsis (Absolute: of Accusative).

In verse 2, the verb is "airo", to "lift up," "raise up." (see Luke 17:13; John 11:41; Acts4:24; Revelation 10:5). "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he lifted up," i.e, he raises it from the ground where it can bear no fruit, and tends it, that it may bring forth fruit, "and every branch that beareth fruit, he pruneth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

Thus there are two conditions spoken--two kinds of branches: one that bears no fruit, and one that does. The former he raises up that it may bear fruit, and the latter he prunes that it may bear more fruit.

And yes, the faith spoken of in James chapter 2 most certainly deals with salvation. For that very question was asked in verse 14.... "Can faith save him?"

I don't know how many times I have said that we need to remain within the context. "Save" in the context, is not talking about save in light of Romans 10:9. It is talking about saved in the sense of being whole in one's soul and physical well being, delivered from hurt or harm...etc. He gives the explanation of "save" in the context.

James 2:14-17:
What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Can faith "without works" save him? Can it make a brother or sister whole? Does it clothed the naked and feed the hungry? Does it bear any fruit? Is it profitable? Does one's faith have life to it? No...it's dead, motionless.

James was definitely not talking about "salvation faith."

 

[AVmetro]

Agape

Agape

I haven't read the "vine" passage in it's full context as of yet (too tired; words on screen are buldging out at me) but the "lift up" thing is, I'm sure, accurate as an analogy. If you witness grape harvesters, you will notice how they lift up the leaves that are setting in the mud, and wash them off.....sort of like how God lifts us up to cleanse us and help us in our infirmities.....bearing fruit is saving souls.....witnessing....a natural reaction to the Holy Spirit....one could hardly call it "work"....

God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
quote:
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We are saved by faith alone, by confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus and by believing in our hearts that God raised him from the dead. If one does not do this, and rejects the Lord Jesus as his savior will not be saved.
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You say we are saved by faith alone, and then go on to include something that requires an action on our part - confessing Jesus with our mouth. Guess what, Agape... you've just included a work in the requirements for salvation. I thought "faith only" was enough.

LOL. How silly can we get? Well I was sitting down when I got saved and born again of God's Spirit. Hey, btw, we believe in the "works" Jesus Christ did for our salvation. So no matter how you look at it, we are saved by grace, through faith...NOT OF WORKS.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, you did say we are saved by works when using Matthew 25 as an example stating they will go to hell because they did not do WORKS.
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I said no such thing. For me to say that works saves us is for me to say that simply doing works saves us. I've never said that. You've gotta have faith that is alive with works, that's what saves, which is what I've been saying this entire time.

Yeah...right. If you say they were sent to hell because they did no works, than that is you saying that works is necessary for salvation. You can't get around. You speak with a false and double tongue.

AGAIN, either we are saved by faith ALONE or not. GOD SAYS: We are saved by faith ALONE...NOT OF WORKS.

I've already agreed that we are saved by grace. Where we disagree is what kind of faith is being spoken of in Ephesians 2:8. You say it's faith by itself, which is dead... you're claiming that a dead faith saves. I'm claiming it's a faith that is alive with works of obedience.

I NEVER SAID FAITH BY ITSELF WHICH IS DEAD, NOR DID I SAY THAT A DEAD FAITH SAVES. YOU ARE A LIAR. Tsk Tsk, Kevin, putting "words" into my mouth which I did not say is a very underhanded and nasty thing to do and not pleasing in God's sight at all. :down:

quote:
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That's right...judgment day has absolutely no bearing on anyone who is already, saved, born again and has eternal life. We already have been judged. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins by his death. His resurrection brought us the new birth and eternal life. Don't you know the scriptures?? We also will be spared the future wrath because Jesus Christ will come for "his" church before the events recorded the Revelation will take place. We are already, spiritually speaking, seated in heavenly places. We have passed from death unto life. We are already joint-heirs with Christ. We have the "blessed hope" of Christ return for his church. We will meet him in the "air." Then, afterwards, he will return (and us with him) to earth when he actually sets his feet on Mount Olives.
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I asked for a verse that supports the idea that judgement has nothing to do with salvation, and you give me your unsupported rhetoric.

How would you know seeing thus far you do not know how to comprehend the Word because of your not caring enough to know the truth.

Try again. VERSE PLEASE.

Nope....I already did...you are just too blind to see it...or you just don't want to see it...whatever, take or leave it, no sweat off my back.

Not going to deal with the rest of your lies and inaccurate handling of God's Word. Please get help from someone whose honest in doing II Timothy 2:15, because you certainly are not

Ephesians 2:8,9 according to Kevin:

For by partial grace are ye somewhat saved through faith; and that of yourselves: [it is] the partial gift of God. AND of works, so man can boast.

Ephesians 2:8,9 ACCORDING TO GOD:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: [it is] the GIFT OF GOD. NOT OF WORKS, LEST any man should boast.

Hmmm...I wonder what God thinks about all this, Kevin.

 

[agape]

Re: Agape

Re: Agape

Originally posted by AVmetro
I haven't read the "vine" passage in it's full context as of yet (too tired; words on screen are buldging out at me) but the "lift up" thing is, I'm sure, accurate as an analogy. If you witness grape harvesters, you will notice how they lift up the leaves that are setting in the mud, and wash them off.....sort of like how God lifts us up to cleanse us and help us in our infirmities.....bearing fruit is saving souls.....witnessing....a natural reaction to the Holy Spirit....one could hardly call it "work"....

Bearing fruit does include witnessing to others the greatness of God's Word. and winning them to the Lord. There is also more to the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Ephesians 5:9:
(For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth);

The greatest joy I have ever experienced, outside of being born again and having fellowship with our heavenly Father, of course, is to share the gospel of the good news of salvation to others and to witness their receiving the gift of holy spirit. To see the light and joy in their eyes because they believed is a joy in my heart that cannot be expressed by words.

God bless you

 

[JustAChristian]

Are You So Blind That You Can Not See?

Are You So Blind That You Can Not See?

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
Just AChristian,

You admit the the gospel comes with the Holy Spirit.With that in mind,consider the words of the Lord Jesus:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...the Words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

How clear can it be?

The Lord also said,"The hour is coming,and now is,when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God;and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:25).

It´s all about the Word and the Spirit.

And as you say,to "sanctify" means "to make something into a state of proper functioning." And when the sinner believes the gospel,that sinner must be put in proper order to be able to receive the Holy Spirit,because the Christian cannot be in a state of proper functioning without the indwellt Spirit.

Therefore,the act of sanctifying includes remmitting the sins of the believer,because without the remissions of the sins the Holy Spirit cannot indwell the believer.

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?And what communion hath light with darkness?"(2Cor.6:14).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you,that He would not hear"(Isa.59:2).

So the idea of the sinner being sanctified by the Spirit impies that he is cleansed from his sins by the Spirit.

Now you need to read Eph.1:13,14 over again.You seem to think that it is possible that the "seal" could be broken.But that is not what the Scriptures says.

It says that "ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit...until the redemption of the purchased possession"(Eph.1:13,14)..

There is no conditions attached in any way to this statement of fact.

It is stated the same way at another place,that by the Holy Spirit "ye are sealed UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION (Eph.4:30).

So we see that Scripture says that the believer is sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

You say that they might be sealed until then,and they might not.

Let me see,who should I believe?The Holy Scriptures or JustAChristian?

You just can´t add "conditions" when no conditions are there.That is adding to the Word of God.

And if you take the Scripture as it is written,then this verse alone establishes beyond a shadow of doubt that the Christian does in fact possess eternal security.

The Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of our immortal bodies.So there is no time that he is not sealed.Therefore,it is impossible that he could ever lose his salvation.

And you say that water does not clean,but baptism does.

Would you mind telling me what part of the things involved in the "rite of water baptism" actually does the cleansing,if it isn´t the water.

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry,

Your Statements are full of contridictions.

Therefore,the act of sanctifying includes remmitting the sins of the believer,because without the remissions of the sins the Holy Spirit cannot indwell the believer.

Here you say that the Holy Spirit will not indwell the sinner. Which I agree too.

So the idea of the sinner being sanctified by the Spirit impies that he is cleansed from his sins by the Spirit.

Here you imply that the Spirit cleanses without documentation. If you are going to make statements, make those that have consistent scriptural documentation. Give us the verse that says the Spirit cleanses.

Now you need to read Eph.1:13,14 over again.You seem to think that it is possible that the "seal" could be broken.But that is not what the Scriptures says. It says that "ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit...until the redemption of the purchased possession"(Eph.1:13,14)..

There is no conditions attached in any way to this statement of fact.

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" John 8:31

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.

You should be able to see that the Bible give conditions of discipleship and salvation. There can be no perpetual sealing where there are conditions that must be accomplished "until the day of redemption"

Would you mind telling me what part of the things involved in the "rite of water baptism" actually does the cleansing,if it isn ´t the water.

We are cleansed by the blood of Christ (1 John 1:7). We contact the blood in the "rite" of baptism, where Jesus appointed the cleansing (Acts 22:16).

JustAChristian

 

[c.moore]

You said Kevin
You seem to think that because water is involved in the baptism of the Lord that it somehow doesn't have a spiritual purpose. It does. It allows us to put away our old man of sin and walk in the spirit instead of the flesh.


Quote c.moore
So you say the spiritual baptism is with the fleshly baptism.

When does the spiritual baptism comes into place ,when you first go into the water or when you come out of the water????

can you do the Water baptism ritual after doing the Spiritual baptism , or does the spiritual baptism has to be done at the same time as the water ritual or it doesn`t have any effect??????????????

Which baptism is more important the water baptism or the Spiritual baptism or which one allows us to put away our old man of sin ?????


You said Kevin
Agape told me the facts? *snicker* That was a good one, c.moore. Thanks for the laugh. All he's told me is that we are saved by faith alone, which is said to be a dead faith, and then, he tried to say that the faith spoken of in James 2 is not speaking of a faith that effects salvation. And you're listening to this guy?!


quote c.moore
here is the Quote from Agape which you laught about and said he didn`t say what I mention, but first let me put my Quote , and then his.


quote: c.moore
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Agape also told you the facts that It the other way around. We are saved by faith alone and good works follow.

Quote by Agape
We are God's workmanship, created (a new creature) IN CHRIST...UNTO (with a view towards) good works.

It the other way around. We are saved by faith alone and good works follow. Not saved by grace + good works for salvation.

You need to make up your mind one way or another. We are either completely saved, born again and have eternal life through the works and believing of Jesus Christ or not. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that works is also a requirement for salvation especially when Scripture does not tell us so.

You contradict yourself throughout and you contradict God's Word.


Maybe you missed this but I didn`t check it out for yourself.

let God Bless you

 

[Apollos]

If any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creation...

If any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creation...

Jerry –
I am surprised at your insistence that the “new man” is the same as the body of Christ, and not those that comprise the body. I have never come across this notion before.

Let’s take a look at the passage directly and extract more information. Paul never says that the “new man” IS the body, but rather, Paul tells us that the “new man” is created, made possible “in Christ” (in the body).

Ephesians 2:14 – “For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
16and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby…” ASV

Verse 14 – “…who hath made both one…” “In Christ” both (Jew and Gentile) are made one. Christ did not make them “Jentiles” or “Gews”, but by being “in Christ” Paul is conveying the idea that Jew & Gentile are “one” before God. Both are “one” spiritually – see verse 11 - that sets the context. BOTH have access to the blood of Christ, to the promises, to the hope of salvation. Paul continues…

“…and brake down the middle wall of partition…” Jew & Gentile can now be united “in Christ” because this “wall” has been broken down. Verse 15 tells us WHAT this “wall” is –and- HOW it was broken down.

Verse 15 – “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances…”. By His death in the “flesh” on the cross, Christ broke down this “wall”, which was the Old Covenant. The Gentiles were never under it and therefore they were “aliens” and “strangers” just as Paul has previously said. The Old Covenant had no provision to give the Gentiles access to the “promises” in Christ! (cf. Eph. 3:6)

The old covenant had established the Jews only as God’s “commonwealth”. So the Old Covenant (between God and Jews), of absolute necessity, had to be REMOVED for many reasons, including the fact that this would allow God’s New Covenant (between God and ALL men) to be established through the blood of Jesus Christ!! (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:14).

Verse15b – “…that He might create in himself of two one new man, so making peace…”.
Paul continues to tell us that “in Himself”, that is “IN CHRIST”, of the two, Jew & Gentile, these would be made ONE new man. IN CHRIST, Jew & Gentile would no longer be recognized as two different classes/races, but that they would be viewed as one “spiritual race” – the “new man”! THIS is what would make peace - Jew & Gentile being seen as ONE spiritually before God. (cf. Galatians 3:28).

Verse 16 – “…and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby…”. Paul summarizes – This is all made possible in the “one body” (the church), that is IN CHRIST, that Jew & Gentile are reconciled, through His death on the cross, having slain “the enmity” (vs.15), that is, having abolished the Old Covenant.

You overlooked my remarks about the body being the church. Please take note that Paul emphasizes that the BODY is the CHURCH – Colossians 1:18 … and that the CHURCH is the BODY – Ephesians 1:22-23.

The “new man” created IN CHRIST are those who make up the body, the church!! The “new man” is NOT the same as the whole body, the church.

And of course, the ONLY way to get IN the BODY, get in the church, get IN Christ, is to be (water) BAPTIZED into Christ – Galatians 3:27, Romans 6:3, Acts 2:41.


2 Corinthians 5:21 – “Wherefore, if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature…”

Galatians 6:15 – “For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

Romans 12:5 – “…so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and severally members one of another.”