The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

Kevin,

You need to make up your mind one way or another. We are either completely saved, born again and have eternal life through the works and believing of Jesus Christ or not. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that works is also a requirement for salvation especially when Scripture does not tell us so.

You contradict yourself throughout and you contradict God's Word.

Good works follow those who are already saved and filled with the righteousness of God.

Ephesians 2:10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are God's workmanship, created (a new creature) IN CHRIST...UNTO (with a view towards) good works.

It the other way around. We are saved by faith alone and good works follow. Not saved by grace + good works for salvation.

For by grace are ye saved, through faith...not of works lest ye shall boast.

Ephesian 2:4,5,8,9:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

You take God's Word and twist it around to mean a lie when you stick "works also for salvation" in the verses when and where God leaves them out! When are you going to read NOT OF WORKS and not add to God's words? Don't you think God meant what He said. Was He lying? When God states something, there are no ifs, ands, or BUTS about it. So please don't be putting in "but" we have to work also for salvation which is totally the opposite of what God declares.

Since works supposedly doesn't play a role in our salvation, would you explain how we can be judged by our works (Rev 20:12) without it having any bearing on our salvation? How do you reconcile this?

When Christ returns for his Church, we will all stand before the "bema" and receive rewards for our "good works" only. No good works, no rewards. This has no bearing on our salvation whatsoever. Good works or no good works will not take away our salvation which came solely by the "works" of Jesus Christ. He saved us. You can do all the works you want...this does not save you. However, you will reap rewards for your good works which you do with the love of God in your heart.

Would you say to Jesus, "No Lord... it's faith only" when He condemned the people in Matt. 25:41-46 to HELL for their lack of WORKS? Would you?

It is Jesus who would say to me IT'S FAITH ONLY.

No one will receive eternal damnation because of not doing any works. In the parable of Matthew 25, Jesus perceived that their hearts were evil and far from him. They did not care at all for Jesus, they removed him from their sight, they rejected him and therefore he reject them. They are of the wicked ones who will receive the second death. Their names will not be written in the Book of Life. That section in Matthew has absolutely nothing to do with works for salvation but everything to do with loving and accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Please answer this question: How can you say that we are not saved by works but by God's grace and then turn around and say that if someone does not do works they are not saved and will go to hell?

We are saved by faith alone, by God's divine favor and goodness towards us. Jesus Christ did the necessary works for our salvation. It is through Christ alone that a person is saved, born again of God's Spirit and has eternal life.

 

[Evangelion]

Nice to see that nobody's agreeing with anyone yet. I'll be back late tonight (VERY late tonight, since I'm on the afternoon/night shift for two weeks), and add a few thoughts of my own.


PS. Thanks for your email, Kevin - it made my day. :up:

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

Ephesians 2:10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You can't be created in Christ Jesus without being baptized. Gal. 3:27 makes the qualification that those who are baptized are the ones who have put on Christ, which makes us in Christ. If you aren't in Christ, through baptism, you can just forget all about Ephesians 2:10.

For by grace are ye saved, through faith...not of works lest ye shall boast.

I never said we are saved by works. I've said this so many times. We are saved by faith only if we act upon that faith and obey the gospel. It is impossible to "obey" the gospel without doing something (works). People who do not "obey" the gospel won't be in heaven. Simple.

When Christ returns for his Church, we will all stand before the "bema" and receive rewards for our "good works" only. No good works, no rewards. This has no bearing on our salvation whatsoever.

Are you suggesting that Judgement Day has no bearing on our salvation? Verse please.

That section in Matthew has absolutely nothing to do with works for salvation but everything to do with loving and accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Either you didn't pay attention to what you were reading, or your pride will not allow you to accept what you read. In the parable spoken of in Matt. 25:41-46, Jesus specifically identified the reasons He was sending them to Hell. They were:

• They did not feed the hungry/give drink to the thirsty
• They did not take in strangers in need
• They did not cloth the naked
• They did not visit the sick and impisoned

These are the reasons that Jesus identifed for sending to them to Hell. That's fact. Are you going to tell me that those reasons listed are not works? Are you that blind?

Please answer this question: How can you say that we are not saved by works but by God's grace and then turn around and say that if someone does not do works they are not saved and will go to hell?

As previously stated, we are saved by faith, but only if we act on that faith. See above.

We are saved by faith alone

James chapter 2:17 clearly says that faith alone is a dead faith. Do you realize you are trying to convince people that a dead faith saves? Dead faith saves? Not a chance. Faith by itself is worthless. Too bad you can't accept this plainly illustrated fact.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,

You can't be created in Christ Jesus without being baptized.

Correct...you can't become a new creature IN Christ unless you are spirit baptized and born again of God's Spirit.

I never said we are saved by works. I've said this so many times. We are saved by faith only if we act upon that faith and obey the gospel. It is impossible to "obey" the gospel without doing something (works). People who do not "obey" the gospel won't be in heaven. Simple.

There goes the "if" I was talking about. We are saved by faith alone, by confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus and by believing in our hearts that God raised him from the dead. If one does not do this, and rejects the Lord Jesus as his savior will not be saved.

Also, you did say we are saved by works when using Matthew 25 as an example stating they will go to hell because they did not do WORKS. Again, please make up your mind. You are becoming quite confusing and you are not making much sense. Either we are save by grace, faith alone or not.

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When Christ returns for his Church, we will all stand before the "bema" and receive rewards for our "good works" only. No good works, no rewards. This has no bearing on our salvation whatsoever.
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Are you suggesting that Judgement Day has no bearing on our salvation? Verse please.

That's right...judgment day has absolutely no bearing on anyone who is already, saved, born again and has eternal life. We already have been judged. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins by his death. His resurrection brought us the new birth and eternal life. Don't you know the scriptures?? We also will be spared the future wrath because Jesus Christ will come for "his" church before the events recorded the Revelation will take place. We are already, spiritually speaking, seated in heavenly places. We have passed from death unto life. We are already joint-heirs with Christ. We have the "blessed hope" of Christ return for his church. We will meet him in the "air." Then, afterwards, he will return (and us with him) to earth when he actually sets his feet on Mount Olives.

Your question alone tells us that you most definitely do not believe we are saved by grace or faith alone. You most definitely believe that works is necessary for salvation. So who are you tryin to kid?

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That section in Matthew has absolutely nothing to do with works for salvation but everything to do with loving and accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
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you didn't pay attention to what you were reading, or your pride will not allow you to accept what you read.

LOL. You are the one who needs to pay attention to the Scriptures and to "think" it through in light of the whole scope of God's Word.

In the parable spoken of in Matt. 25:41-46, Jesus specifically identified the reasons He was sending them to Hell. They were:

They did not feed the hungry/give drink to the thirsty

They did not take in strangers in need

They did not cloth the naked

They did not visit the sick and impisoned

So you are saying that Jesus sent them to hell because they did not do the above? And you say I need to pay attention.

It wasn't the works, because God already makes it clear in His Word that we are saved by faith alone and NOT BY WORKS...

So what you say just cannot be true. The question is "why" were they not doing these thing? Because, as I already stated, their hearts were evil. They had no true love or regard for Jesus at all They were hypocrites and liars and their hearts were far from Jesus. They denied Jesus when they denied one of his. Jesus knew the wickedness in their hearts and was basically saying that he does not know them. They were not one of his.

The "parable" in Matthew has absolutely nothing to do with works for salvation except in your own mind. If they loved Jesus, then...then...then...they would have loved those who belonged to him.

These are the reasons that Jesus identifed for sending to them to Hell. That's fact. Are you going to tell me that those reasons listed are not works? Are you that blind? [/quote]No, you are the one who is blind and you will remain blind until you understand the fullness of the grace of God.

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Please answer this question: How can you say that we are not saved by works but by God's grace and then turn around and say that if someone does not do works they are not saved and will go to hell?
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As previously stated, we are saved by faith, but only if we act on that faith. See above.

You make absolutely no sense at all. Nothing but a tongue twister.

James chapter 2:17 clearly says that faith alone is a dead faith. Do you realize you are trying to convince people that a dead faith saves?

LOL...I am?? James is saying FAITH without works is dead. They have faith but when no action is taken on it, there is no life to their faith, no fruit comes out of it, no profit. It is NOT SAYING they are not saved regarding salvation faith. Faith w/o works cannot save or make whole the person who has the need. It's all talk and no walk. Get it? James is saying faith w/o works, accomplishes nothing and brings no one any profit at all. Again you are wrong in reading faith w/o works means they are not saved.

Please get out of the OT of works, and start living in the new life we have in Christ...it's a far, far better place to be than to keep working for the salvation God in Christ has already given us. Seems kind of silly...don't you think.

 

[agape]

Evangelion,

They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

The reason they will have entrance into the kingdom of God is because they repented of their ways. Remember, Jesus Christ said that no one can enter into the "kingdom of God" unless he is born of the spirit.

For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

How did John come in the way of righteousness? He preached the Kingdom of God...he came to make way for the coming Messiah. He preached Christ and that they should repent. The publicans and harlot believed him and they repented. The others saw the errors of their way BUT did not repent.

I John 5:2-4.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

First of all, it is interesting to note that the Epistles are addressed to the "born again" Christians who were baptized in the holy spirit. We keep His commandments by renewing our minds to His Word. As we walk in this light, we prove to ourselves that we are the children of God.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Whosoever is "born of God"...spirit baptism. The word "world" refers to Satan's realm and the things in it. We have the God-given ability because of His spirit in us, to overcome all oppression because "greater is he that is in you, then he that is in the world." Our victory comes with (1) our believing in the Word of God and (2) renewing our minds according to it. Those who are born again overcometh the world because Christ, the one who overcame the world for us, is in each born-again believer. We believe that we already have the victory in Christ and by faith claim that victory in our lives.

I really fail to see the point you are making. What is it? So far, those verses prove that spirit baptism is absolutely necessary.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Romans 6:3-4.
Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Paul asks his readers a question: or do you not know, are you personally ignorant or unaware that as many of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus (all of us who are born again) were baptized into his death? We who have been baptized into Christ Jesus by receiving holy spirit-life have therefore also been baptized (immersed, surrounded) into everything that was involved and accomplished by his death.

We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.

It is in Christ that Christians are caused to rise up together with him. How did we come to be in this spiritual position? By means of our belief/faith of what God has said - the gift of holy spirit which is the spirit of Christ is within each and every Christian (see Colossians 1:27). We too are to live within the same newness of life in which the resurrected Christ Jesus is living.

What is this "newness of life"? The word "newness" not only means that this "life" is recent, but it also includes the truth that it is different from that which had been formerly. It is in the place of the former. This "life" is the spiritual life of the resurrected Christ. The newness of life for every born-again Christian is the holy spirit-life which he received at the time when he confessed or agreed with his mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believed in his heart that God raised him up from the dead. This holy spirit-life is the new and completing part of a believer. It is different to the soul/breath-life and different to the body which the person already had. Now this person has three parts: two life-forms (holy spirit life and soul life) and a body. Body...Soul...Spirit.

Thus, this is NOT a clear reference to water baptism. It is very clear that this is "spirit baptism"...which needs NO WATER.

Paul has used the Greek word baptizo, meaning "to dip or plunge." You tell me, Jerry - is water something that you can "dip or plunge" people into? How are we expected to "dip or plunge" somebody into the Holy Spirit, pray tell?

We don't dip or plunge anyone into the holy spirit. Christ does the baptizing. The Word does not give us an explanation of "how" it is exactly done, but that it is done and that is what truly matters.

Acts 1:5:
For John truly baptized [baptizo] with water; but ye shall be baptized [baptizo] with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

"Baptizo" is used for both water and spirit baptism.

 

[c.moore]

Kevin said:
Something I previously overlooked about your "key" analogy. You have yet to scriptually prove that one would recieve the key to God's kingdom by faith only, which is taught as being a dead faith.


Quote c.moore
A good biblical proof of my analogy is : we are just,and you and I know that the just can enter in to heaven,
Ro:3:22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro:3:27: Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro:3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro:4:3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ro:4:4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro:4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ro:4:6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You recieve the Key to God Kingdom by faith only by hearing and believing his word.


Quote Kevin
God would not give the key to somebody who has not obeyed the command of baptism, because it is through baptism that we put the old man of sin away, and walk in the newness of life. It is at that point that we have been given the key to His kingdom. How can one have the key to the kingdom of God without putting away his old man of sin?

Quote c.moore
Like I said before , you can`t put the cart before the horses.

You still have not answered by question directly, does the work of water baptism come before the spiritual baptism, yes ,or no??????????

I said before in the my key analogy that,The way I see that you believe is that the person giving you the key , and the free permission to eat in his store, is like you say first I must do what ever I can first before I get the permission, and key, like clean the man house ,toilets, clean the store from the outside,and everything that you can do for the man , and then maybe you might get the permission, and the key to stop from starving to death, buit by the time you do all this works first you will die while your working from starvation, so your concept doesn`t make sence, and this is for sure not the way of the Lord , and the way of the bible.

This is stress, and your doctrine what you teach in your group just causes alot of unsure obedience, because you never know if your works is completed, or if you did enough to please God, that why God gave Himself for us so we can trust His finished works that he did for us so we don`t have stress, and be depressed of not doing enough. This is why God gave us this gift of salvation, because he knows already we can never be righteous or justifyed to work for our salvation in any way.

agape, tryed to show this to you biblically , and with common sence the fact that you are teaching and understanding works, and baptism backwards, and putting the cart before the horses.

I have even learned something from what Agape said:Ephesians 2:10:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are God's workmanship, created (a new creature) IN CHRIST...UNTO (with a view towards) good works.

I forgot about this verse , but I seen in the verse which I missed by my study, it says, (in ) Christ Jesus.
the next thing that was revealed was (before ordained), meaning before we can even do any good works or water baptismo rituals.

Agape also told you the facts that It the other way around. We are saved by faith alone and good works follow. Not saved by grace + good works for salvation.

For by grace are ye saved, through faith...not of works lest ye shall boast.

Ephesian 2:4,5,8,9:
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

When I had A debate with the Mormons over this same subjects , they said the way we believe is to good to be true, and also to simple,because they are use to hard works, and struggling to prove thier rights to God and qualify th reach the highest heavens.
The higher you go the harder the works A person must do I think you and the mormons believe,"But " I am not calling you an mormon only I am trying to piont out my brother Kevin thereis a lack of knowledge in your faith.

Please Let God bless you, just recieve it only.

 

[c.moore]

hello agape

Are you a Pastor, or did you go to a bible school or something?

You really got it going on with facts , and truth, that I am even getting wisdom from, thank you for helping me and other to grow in the faith of God ,praise God.:up:

AMEN

 

[JustAChristian]

Jerry Needs Help.

Jerry Needs Help.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
JustAChristian,

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry has made a post and needs assistance with some answers.

Sometimes the Holy Spirit is spoken of as being the agent in baptism and sometimes as the element.Also,sometimes the Holy Spirit is used to "seal" one who believes,and sometimes the Holy Spirit indwells the Chritian.

Can you show us a verse that says the Holy Spirit is a cleansing agent/element?

It is simple to understand the work of the Holy Spirit if we do not confuse one function of the Spirit with the others

I can accept that.

When the sinner believes the word,he is made alive spiritually by the Word that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.As the Lord said:

I have stated that one is Purified in Obeying the Truth, but where do you find "the word coming the power of the Holy Spirit?" Do not attempt to use John 6:63, for this references that the word of Christ is of a spiritual nature just as the word is life or capable of producing the New Birth (1 Peter 1:22-23).

"It is the SPIRIT THAT GIVETH LIFE...The WORDS that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

See my remarks above.

At the time when a sinner believes the gospel,at that time he is BAPTIZED INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST by THE SPIRIT.Here the Holy Spirit is the agent.

But you indicate that this is Holy Spirit baptism which it is not. The Holy Spirit is a worker for God but is not a cleansing agent/element.

"For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body...the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13).

As the agent but not the element of cleansing.

At that time the Holy Spirit also "seals" the believer.And the Holy Spirit will continue to "seal" the believer until he receives his immortal body.So the seal will never be taken away or broken,so that means that the believer possesses eternl life.Remember,the verse does NOT say that he will be "sealed" until the day of redemption IF he does this or that.Instead it says that he will remain sealed until that day.

" Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32.

Here we see plainly that Jesus places conditions on discipleship. Those that are disciples must continue in His word. If they go away, they no longer are his disciples.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

What does it mean to be "sealed"? Why would Jesus use a term that we know has potential for breaking to define an "unbreaking" or "unbreakable" situation? I believe seals are identifying factors, but can be altered or broken. Jesus will not alter it or break it, but the disciple who will not continue in his word will break the seal. Each individual is a free moral agent and can cease following Christ and be lost. (1 John 2:1-17).

At that time also the Holy Spirit indwells the believer.And all these things happened to Cornelius and his family.Theywere "made alive" by the Spirit--"it is the Spirit that giveth life".They were "sealed" by the Holy Spirit,and the Holy Spirit also indwelled them.We see that BEFORE THEY WERE BAPTIZED the "Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the Word"(Acts10:44).

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that "Holy Spirit of promise.



You use the phrase "made alive by the Spirit". You have no scriptural proof of this statement. Again, you use the phrase, "We see that BEFORE THEY WERE BAPTIZED THE Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word" and try to make us believe that the Holy Spirit indwells before they are immersed. You need to review what Peter preached on Pentecost (Acts 2:38. You need to accept it thusly: Eph 1:13 "...after that ye heard (unto obedience JAC) the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise." Sealing comes after hearing and believing, which is the process of obeying the gospel. There is no indwelling prior to obedience.

So it is obvious that they had remission of their sins and were saved.Because if they remained in their sins then the Holy Spirit would be SEPARATED from them:

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Eternal life is only potential in the life of a disciple. Obedience bring about the potential. We have forgivness of sins and sealing in this life, but eternal life comes "in the world to come".

"But your iniquities have SEPARATED between you and your God,and your sins have hidden His face from you,that He will not hear"(Isa.59:2).

JustAChristian,you say that the Holy Spirit is not the cleaning agent for washing away spiritual sins.Do you believe that water ACTUALLY CLEANS the soul from sins?

No, water will never cleanse one of sins. Baptism is the medium for cleansing. It is at this point that we are united into the death of Christ (Romans 6:3-5) and come into contact with the shed blood of Christ. Water is the instrument of spiritual application placed by Christ, but it is the blood that cleanses. I have never said that water cleanses of sins.

JustAChristian



Have A Safe and Happy Day Keep the light of Jesus Christ Shining in your Life.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
So we see that Peter considered it necessary for these people to be baptised, despite the fact that the Holy Spirit had already fallen upon them. And yet you argue that "Spirit baptism" is the "one baptism" which all of us must share! So why did Peter insist on water baptism as well? Looks like you've got a theological redunancy here...

No theological redunancy here. It is important to work Acts 10 with Acts 11 in order to understand what Peter meant by "water."

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

As stated in Acts 11:16, 17 after Peter tells those in Jerusalem how while he "spake these word", the Holy Ghost fell on them, the Gentiles, which heard the word."

Acts 11:16--"Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost"

45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter

Peter answered because they were astonished, awe-struck that on the Gentiles "also" was pour out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Did anyone even mention water baptism that Peter should answer them with "can any man forbid water?" Peter is responding to the circumcised who believed. He responded to their being awe-strucked because that on the Gentiles "also" was poured out the gift of Holy Spirit. The water here cannot be referring to "water baptism" since Peter had already witnessed the spirit baptism of Cornelius and his household and he remembered what Jesus had spoken concerning John's baptism "BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."

Acts 11:17--Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? "

Peter adds to his recollection in Acts 11, which was left out in Acts 10, "what was I, that I could that I could withstand God?" "Can any man forbid water" is referring to "spiritual water," which is to be baptized in holy spirit. There is no mention of Peter baptizing them with John's baptism of water in both Acts 10 and 11.

(48) And [even] he commanded [arranged-toward] them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

"Water" is also used "figurately," as "living" or "spiritual" water. In light of this and in putting chapter 10 together with chapter 11, where more information is given concerning the Gentiles being baptized in holy spirit, there is every indication to consider that the "water" used in verse 47 of Acts 10 is referring to "spiritual water," and not the "physical element of water." Cornelius and his household had already been baptized with holy spirit (proven by their speaking with tongues). They were already saved and born again. What could water baptism possibly add to the spiritual baptism? Did the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, his death, resurrection and ascension fall short of salvation that he needed assistance with H20 to make salvation more complete? There is no logic in believing that being dunked in water is still necessary. Makes no sense at all. The whole idea of still needing to be water baptized even after one is born again is all part of a man-made doctrine. We have been so indoctrinated by teachings from our church, parents, priest, pastors...ect., which most of us received in our youth, that every time we see the word baptism, we automatically think water baptism. This should not be so.

In John, chapter 4, Jesus is talking with the woman at the well. He compares the physical element of water, which leaves one only to thirst again...never satisfied...with the "living" water, which is spiritual water, holy spirit-life and able to satisfy the deepest part of the soul seeking the righteousness of God.

John 4:14--"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

John 7:38 --"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

To summarize--Peter replied with what was needed to respond to the reaction of the circumcised who believed and were with him: why are you so bewildered? Surely none of you, nor I myself, have the ability or power to forbid the water (spiritual water which is holy spirit-life) to cause these Gentiles to not be baptized in holy spirit? Are we going to hinder the purposes of God from the Gentiles whom we can hear speaking with tongues which is proof that they have received the same holy spirit life and they now are able to manifest the promise of the Father which the Lord Jesus Christ foretold about, are we? No, of course we are not able to hinder God's will by means of the Lord Jesus Christ! God has truly spiritually cleansed these Gentiles who are now the children of God.

Peter, according to chapters 10 and 11, never water baptized the Gentiles. These chapters do show that God is not a respecter of people (nations) and all who believe in Christ are saved, born again of God's spirit and have eternal life.

 

[Evangelion]

Jerry -

The Apostle John writes to the Hebrew Christians:

"And this is the record,that God hath given to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

You say that this somehow means that John is telling them this,but his words do not mean in the present.

Correct. It is not a literal reference to a current state of affairs. John's audience was a mortal audience. They were not literally immortal at the time he was writing to them. That's a problem for your argument, and you have yet to resolve it.

In other words,they do not really possess eternal life at the time that the epistle is written.He tells them that they have eternal life,but they really do not.

Correct. This is the language of Scripture - specifically, the language of religious Jews, such as John. I have already presented numerous examples of such lanuage - all of which have been ignored.

Why?

That is ridiculous.

*snip*

What's ridiculous is that you keep repeating your argument without addressing my points. Go back, read my post again, take note of the verses where "things which are not, are spoken of as if they were", and tell me what you think they are saying.

We'll talk just as soon as you address the full range of my proof texts - and not before.

 

[Evangelion]

Agape -

Like Jerry, you keep chipping away at one tiny part of my argument, without ever addressing it as a whole. We have reached an impasse, and something needs to happen before our debate can progess further.

Observe:

• You need to prove that the "one baptism" of Romans 6:1-4 is "Spirit baptism", not water baptism.
  
• It is obvious to any literate person that Paul is using this symbolism in order to show that it is by this "one baptism" that we identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
  
• This "one baptism", therefore, must consist of a process which somehow mirrors or emulates death, burial, and resurrection.
  
• In order to prove your point, you will need to explain how "Spirit baptism" fulfills the typology of Romans 1:1-4 - specifically, death, burial and resurrection.
  
• I have shown you that water baptism has three stages, all of which perfectly represent the three stages of death, burial and resurrection.
  
• You have failed to show how "Spirit baptism" fulfills the typology of Romans 6:1-4.

That is the very least you need to do before your argument has any credibility.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Evangelion,

The words of God are inspired by God.If God wants to tell the believers that they possess eternal life,then that is business:

"For He saith to Moses,I will have mercy on who I will have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion"(Ro.9:15).

You,or no one else,is going to tell the Lord what he can do and what he cannot do!

You expect us (or anyone for that matter) to believe that John told them that they possessed eternal life but they did not?

"And this is the record,that God HATH GIVEN to us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

If this eternal life would not be theirs until the future,then why would John tell them that they possessed it then?

And if they did not possess eternal life,then how could they KNOW that they possessed it?

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God,that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life"(1Jn.5:13).

I have heard LAME explanations of Scripture in the past,but this TAKES THE CAKE!

And what about the Lord´swords that He Himself has given eternal life to His sheep?:

"And I give unto them eternal life;and they shall never perish...My Father,Who gave them to Me..."(Jn.10:29).

The Lord Himself said that the Father had given them to Him.It has already happened.It is not in the future.And read what the Lord said about those who were given to Him by the Father:

"And this is the Father´s will Who hath sent Me,that of ALL that He HATH given Me I should lose nothing,but should raise it up again at the last day"(Jn.6:39).

Is this all about things that will happen in the future?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Evangelion]

See? You comletely avoid my argument, and then go on to post a heap of stuff that's totally irrelevant to the issue!

I would have expected the Holy Spirit to do a better job of guiding you, Jerry.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

You ask where it can be found that the Holy Spirit is a cleansing agent/element?

"Elect...through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT..."(2Pet.1:2).

"...because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRT..."(2Thess.2:13).

You ask where it is stated that the Word comes in the power of the Holy Spirit?

"...by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven..."(1Pet.1:12).

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only,but also in power,and in the Holy Spirit..."(1Thess.1:5).

And yes,the Lord does place "conditions" on being His disciples,and this relates to our "service":

"I beseech you therefore,brethren,by the mercies of God,that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice,holy,acceptable unto God,which is your REASONABLE SERVICE"(Ro.12:1).

In regard to the "seal" of the Holy Spirit,the words of Paul are clear.The Christian is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit until he receives his immortal body.We know that a "seal" can be broken,but Paul is saying that that "seal" will NOT be broken.You say that it can be broken.Who is right?

And you say that there is no "indwelling prior to obedience".But obedience is a life-long process according to you who attempt to put the Christian under law.How could the Christian be indwelt during his life if the "obedience" needed for salvation does not end until death?

And we see from Scripture that the Christian is "sanctified" by the Holy Spirit.How can a "water baptism" ever cleanse the soul from sin?You say that "water is the instrument of spiritual application placed by Christ."

But why would an "earthly,natural" element be the instrument to cleanse the sinner in a spiritual sense?

You are confusing "natural things" with "spiritual things" in spite of Paul´s words to "compare spiritual thingswith spiritual"(1Cor.2:13).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Evangelion,

You say that the language spoken by John is the same type of language used at John 3:13.You also say that these are the words of the Lord,and since He is standing there the words must refer to the future.

But you are mistaken that these words are the words of the Lord.Instead,they are the words of John:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven,but He that came down from heaven,even the Son of Man"(Jn.3:13).

Just because these words might be "red" in your Bible does not prove that the editors knew that the words belonged to the Lord.We are called on to use our intelligence in understanding His word.

You also seem to think that the following words are in reference to the "future":

"And hath raised us up together,and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:6).

But instead Paul is telling us that right now,as far as the Lord is concerned,we are now "in the Body of Christ",and our "life is hidden with Christ in God"(Col.3:3).

That is why he tells us that we have already "been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son"(Col.1:13).We are told that NOW,"if ye be risen with Christ,seek those things which are above,where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God"(Col.3:1).

We are so thoroughly identified with the Lord Jesus Christ thatwe are told that His life is our life (Col.3:4) and that we "live through Him"(1Jn.4:9).In order to makesure that our position is NOW in Christ,Paul says:

"For we are members of His body,of His flesh,and of His bones"(Eph.5:30).

And you say that this belongs to some FUTURE time.

Now that I have addressed these illusions of yours,perhaps you will now address the plain words of the Lord Jesus Himself which prove that the Christian possesses eternal security.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape -
Like Jerry, you keep chipping away at one tiny part of my argument, without ever addressing it as a whole. We have reached an impasse, and something needs to happen before our debate can progess further.

That's because a tiny part of your argument is all you have. Why haven't you addressed the verses I supplied when I first replied to your question.? To be honest with you, Evangelion, you don't even have an argument.

The Greater Baptism...The ONE Baptism....

With the coming of the greater (holy spirit), the lesser (water) came to an end. This replacement was initiated on Pentecost. On Pentecost the replacement was first applied.

Galatians 8:27, 28:
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Being baptized into the body of Christ doesn't mean baptized with the old physical elment of water, but with the new spiritual element of holy spirit.

Baptism with water--a person has water put on him or is immersed with physical water for a certain period of time, and then the person comes out from the water and dries off so that he no longer has physical water on him anymore!

Baptism in holy spirit--a person is immersed or surrounded in holy spirit-life and does NOT come out from it because it is the seed of God Himself given to that person by means of the Lord Jesus Christ. The gift of holy spirit cannot "dry-off" nor can it be re-done at some later '"revival" because once received it remains received!

I think I'll stay with THE ONE BAPTISM, which is BAPTISM IN HOLY SPIRIT, thank you.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape -

[*]You need to prove that the "one baptism" of Romans 6:1-4 is "Spirit baptism", not water baptism.

No you need to prove that the one baptism is water baptism.

It is obvious to any literate person that Paul is using this symbolism in order to show that it is by this "one baptism" that we identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

It is obvious that any illiterate person may think Paul is using this symbolism to prove that the one baptism is of water because they do not know any better, because in truth, "spirit baptism" is the ONE BAPTISM in which we identify with CHRIST in that when he died, we died WITH HIM...when he was buried we were buried WITH HIM and when he was resurrected we were resurrected WITH HIM, when he ascended we ascended WITH HIM and when he sat down at the Father's right hand, we sat WITH HIM. Can water baptism do this that it should be the the so-called one baptism. I definitely think not.

This "one baptism", therefore, must consist of a process which somehow mirrors or emulates death, burial, and resurrection.

Oh really...and by what chapter and verse do you support "your" theory on? Spirit baptism consist of the true process which is spiritual, inward and eternal as opposed to water baptism which is physical, outward and temporal.

In order to prove your point, you will need to explain how "Spirit baptism" fulfills the typology of Romans 1:1-4 - specifically, death, burial and resurrection.

You have it a little backwards here Evangelion. The spirit baptism is NOT a typology...it is a "spiritual" truth and I already gave you the scriptures to prove it.

Evangelion, you still make no sense at all and what you are trying to prove is not even in the scriptures. Really, I am still very surprise to see you standing on the "illogical" side of the tracks.

 

[Evangelion]

Nice dodge, Jerry. :up: Even if I dropped those words of Jesus (and I see abolutely no reason to do so), you would still be left with my other passages. So I'd like to see you grapple with Jesus' words first, and then move on to the others. Thanks in advance.



Agape - I didn't address the verses you supplied when you first replied to my question because they did not answer my question. Now, are you going to explain to me why you think Paul has used the symbolism of death, burial and resurrection? If so, can I expect you to show me how "Spirit baptism" fulfils this symbolism? Remember - I need to see a direct, one-to-one correspondence for each of the three stages.

You also have to remember that the word "baptism" does not imply continual residence in water. It only refers to immersion by dipping or plunging. This is why it's such a good metaphor for death, burial and resurrection. But if I take your explanation (based on the "we are always covered by the Holy Spirit" argument, which is not even required by Paul's analogy) results in the believer descending into the grave, but never rising from it! So I need you to resolve this problem for me, please. Thanks in advance.

 

[Evangelion]

Agape, I am not saying that "Spirit baptism" is a form of typology. I am saying that the death, burial and resurrection to which Paul refers in Romans 6:1-4 is a form of typology, and that only water baptism can fulfil this typology.