The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Apollos]

"Faith only"?? It is not in the Bible...

"Faith only"?? It is not in the Bible...

I am amused that the "faith only" crowd here ignored the reasoning of my recent post. Must man do something to be saved?? OF COURSE!

Will the "faith only" crowd acknowledge this? They haven't yet.

We will ever learn from them where REPENTANCE and CONFESSION play a part?? Will they admit man has to do something, or will they convert to Calvinism and wait for the HS to "zap" them with irresistable salvation??

And what of those who clamour for the "sinner's prayer"? Where will they fit in? Ah, the suspense of it all.

I guess they have all gone into the "I can't answer the reasoning, but I know that I am right mode." and have chosen to ignore the truth.

Suffice it to say.........

The faith that saves is the faith that ACTS !!"

 

[Evangelion]

Yeah, onya Apollos! :up: Crank it, baby!

 

[Evangelion]

Thanks for proving Kevin's point, AV! :up:

 

[Evangelion]

Jerry -

*snip*

So it is by "faith" that the "sheep" will "inherit the kingdom".

Not once during that entire parable does Jesus say "it is by faith that the sheep will inherit the kingdom." Not once. This should come as no surprise to us, because that is not what the parable is saying. Even to make that argument, you had to depart from the passage in which the sheep and goats are mentioned. I require you to make your argument from the passage in which the sheep and goats are mentioned. After all, this is a parable of Christ. If it's saying what you believe it to be saying, this should be evident from the plain text itself.

Next,the Lord names some of the "fruit" that was prodced through their faith:

*snip*

Agreed. This "fruit" is the fruit of faith - it is the result of a faith which produces good works. And, as we can see for ourselves, those who have not performed those good works...

...are excluded from the kingdom.

But the "goats" will not have "faith"

Not once does Jesus say that the goats do not enter because they lack faith. Not once. He says that they do not enter because they did not perform these works. That is my argument, and I can make it directly from the text, as you can see. Your argument requires a temporary departure from the text, in search of other texts which say what you want this text to say. That is not good enough, Jerry.

and they will not believe that the Lord Jesus is the "Son of God".

This parable does not say that the goats do not enter because they do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Try again.

*snip*

See.Evangelion,I answered that verse without reverting to cheap tricks.

Does "Totally ignoring the context and making your argument from another set of verses entirely count as a "cheap trick"? In my book, it does. Please try again.

I answered and did not have to change the words as they are written.

No, you did not change the words as they are written - what you did instead, was to go to other places where the words you really want are found, and then try to pretend that these words are also in the parable of the sheep and goats. Your argument is not based on the text itself - it is based on another set of texts, from which you have imported a specific idea to the parable in queston, which does not actually contain it. That is not good enough, Jerry.

Now,perhaps you will answer the parable of the sheep where the Lord Jesus is the Good Shepherd:

"And I give unto them eternal life,and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH...My,Father,Who gave them to Me"(Jn.10:28,29).

"And this is the Father´s will Who hath sent Me,that of ALL that He hath given Me I should LOSE NOTHING,but should raise it up again the last day"(Jn.6:39).

All in good time, Jerry. I am still waiting for you to address the parable of the talents, and I am still waiting for you to address the verses in which things which have not yet happened are spoken of as if they have. What do you make of these passages, Jerry? Why has God chosen to use this language in His Word?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JustAChristian,

When the teaching ofScripturedoes not match your ideas,you have a simple solution.You justadd words until it fits your ideas.

For example,the words of Paul are clear that after believing the Christian is "sealed" with the Holy Spirit,and will REMAIN sealed unto the day of redemption:

"...after ye believed ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit...until the redemption of the purchased possession..."(Eph.1:13,14).

"...by Whom yeare sealed unto the day of redemption"(Eph.4:30).

Who do you think you are?Do you think that you have been given a special dispensation by God to come along and change the words and meaning of Scripture?

I have neverseen anything quite so disgraceful as someone thinking that he knows better than Paul and attempting to change the very meaning of Paul´s words by adding conditions that are not there.

Your conditions that you WISH were thereare NOT THERE.

Why don´t you try dealing with the words as they are written?

And next,I prove that it is the Holy Spirit that sends away the sins of the believer by using your very own definition for "sanctification",but it must be above your understanding.

First,I provided verses that state that the believer is "sanctified by the Spirit"(1Pet.1:2).

Then,by your own definition "sanctification" means "to make something into a state of proper functioning."

Since the believer cannot function properly without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,then it is necessary for the Holy Spirit "to make the believer into a state of proper functioning."

In order to do that,the Holy Spirit must send away the sins of the believer.So we see that by using your own definition that the Holy Spirit sends away the sins and therefore the believer is clean of all his sins.

I asked you if it isn´t the water that actually cleanses the sinner from his sins,what element of the rite of water baptism does this.You answered:

"We are cleansed by the blood of Christ (1Jn.1:7).We contact the blood in the 'rite' of baptism,where Jesus appointed the cleansing (Acts22:16).

Well,are you saying that the following verse refers to "washing" with "blood"?:

"Arise,and be baptized,and wash away thy sins"(Acts22:16).

Do you believe that Paul arose and washed away his sins with the "blood" of Christ?

 

[agape]

Quoted by Kevin:

All he's told me is that we are saved by faith alone, which is said to be a dead faith, and then, he tried to say that the faith spoken of in James 2 is not speaking of a faith that effects salvation. And you're listening to this guy?!

kevin PLEASE WAKE UP! STOP TWISTING MY WORDS AROUND AND STOP BEING A LIAR.

James is talking about those who are already SAVED AND HAVE FAITH! FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

TO GET SAVED IS BY FAITH ALONE...NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

I SAID WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH ALONE. YOU ADDED: WHICH IS SAID TO BE DEAD FAITH

I SAID THE WORD SAVE IN JAMES 2 DOES NOT REFER TO SAVE MEANING SALVATION FAITH (ROMANS 10:9) AND I EXPLAINED WHAT "SAVE" MEANT IN THE CONTEXT OF JAMES 2. YOU ADDED: "THEN HE TRIED TO SAY THAT THE FAITH SPOKEN OF IN JAMES 2 IS NOT SPEAKING OF A FAITH THAT "EFFECTS" SALVATION."

PLEASE STOP MISHANDLING MY WORDS LIKE YOU DO WITH GOD'S WORD

 

[Evangelion]

Steady on, steady on...

Steady on, steady on...

Take it easy there, Agape. We all get frustrated at each other, and we all take offence at what we perceive to be misrepresentations. That's par for the course.

But when you accuse Kevin of lying, you go too far. Kevin is a fine exegete, and a stalwart defender of God's Word. He would never knowingly misrepresent you. If this is what he has done, then I'm sure that he'll make amends, just as soon as you point out the problem and explain how he's misunderstood you.

I advise you to edit that post, and remove the offending clause.

In fact, I strongly advise it.

Strongly.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Evangelion,

First of all,the words at Matthew 25:31-46 are not words of a "parable".

Instead they are the Lord´s words describing the things that will come to pass in the future.

Next,I took nothing out of context,and I explained Scripture by using other Scriptures.Here are the words of the Lord in regard to the "sheep":

"then shall the King say unto them on His right hand,Come,ye blessed of My Father,INHERIT THE KINGDOM that was prepared for you..."(Mt.25:34).

In order to understand how the "sheep" inherited the kingdom,we must go to other Scriptures.That is not an uncommon practice in Bible study.And for that we will go to the Revelation,the book that deals with the events that we are discussing.And I am not totally "ignoring the context" because the very "context" is speaking of "inheriting the kingdom":

"He that OVERCOMETH shall INHERIT all things"(Rev.21:7).

"To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with Me in My throne..."(Rev.3:21).

So according to Scriptur,we can see that the "sheep" shall "inherit the kingdom" because they are the ones who OVERCAME.

And Scripture also reveals just exactly how one OVERCOMES:

"For whoever is born of God overcometh the world;and this is the victory that overcometh the world,even OUR FAITH.Who is he that overcometh the world,but he that BELIEVETH that Jesus is the Son of God"(1Jn.5:4,5).

So we see that the "sheep" will inherit the kingdom because they had FAITH and they believed that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God.And then the Lord lists the "fruits" of the faith of those who will inherit the kingdom:

"For I was hungry,and ye gave me food..."(v.35).

On the other hand,the "goats" did not inherit the kingdom.And the reason why they did not is not difficult to determine--they had no faith.And having no faith,they would also have no "fruits" of faith.Therefore,we see the words of the Lord stating that:

"Depart from Me,ye cursed,into everlasting fire,prepared for the devil and his angels;For I was hungry,and ye gave Me no food..."

If they would have had "faith" then they surely would have given Him food.So they were excluded from the kingdom because of a lack of "faith".

And this all comes FROM THE CONTEXT.We see that the"sheep" inherited the kingdom,and Scripture declares that it is those who OVERCOME who inherit the kingdom.Also it is Scripture that declares that it is by "faith" that one OVERCOMES.

Now it is your turn to address the parable of the Good Shepherd(Jn.10:1-29).

We see that the Good Shepherd is the Lord Jesus.And He says that His "sheep" were given to Him by the Father (v.29).And we know that those "sheep" who were given to Him by the Father will never be lost or "cast out":

"All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me;and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out"(Jn.6:37).

"And this is the Father´s will Who hath sent Me,that of ALL that He hath given Me I should lose nothing,but should raise it up again the last day"(Jn.6:39).

So we see that the "sheep" will not be cast out nor will they be lost.And to top that off,the Lord says that His sheep SHALL NEVER PERISH:

"And I give unto them eternal life,and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH"(Jn.10:28).

So Mr.Evangelion,it is time for you to address these verses.

I await your answer.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[AVmetro]

agape

agape

Bearing fruit does include witnessing to others the greatness of God's Word. and winning them to the Lord. There is also more to the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Ephesians 5:9:
(For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth);

The greatest joy I have ever experienced, outside of being born again and having fellowship with our heavenly Father, of course, is to share the gospel of the good news of salvation to others and to witness their receiving the gift of holy spirit. To see the light and joy in their eyes because they believed is a joy in my heart that cannot be expressed by words.

God bless you

Yeah, I agree too. When a person touches a hot stove they quickly jerk back their hand.....it's a reaction to the heat...same with salvation...as a result of the experience of the Holy Spirit we will have a "natual reaction" of sorts. It is not "work". For if you consider it to be "work" i.e. burdensome, then you probably aren't being led by the Spirit. It's a paradox...like turning on a light switch..you can't throw the switch without the light coming on....people so often confuse what is meant by "works" in the bible......rather they vouch to contradict the scriptures...

God bless,
AV

 

[Evangelion]

Jerry, you just ignored everything I wrote and repeated yourself without taking the time to cover the holes in your methodology.

How can I even begin to take you seriously?

 

[Evangelion]

I note with interest that the parable of the talents has been scrupulously ignored...

Oh, and just to throw it into the mix - if "works" are nothing more than an automatic response, why are we "judged according to them"?

 

[JustAChristian]

Something Fresh.

When Paul was brought to Rome as a prisoner for preaching the gospel of salvation , he sent for the chief men of the Jews and explained that his being sent to Rome as a prisoner was not because of crimes he had committed, but because he preached the "hope of Israel." (Acts 28:20). The Jewish leaders told Paul that they had received no letters from Judea concerning him, and that those who had traveled with him had spoken nothing against him. Then they added: "But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that everywhere it is spoken against" (Acts 28:22). The sect to which they referred was actually the church. They had heard evil about it, but they wanted to learn for themselves.
When a thing is spoken against, people may respond in different ways. Some, because of prejudice, want to hear no more about it. others are curious enough to investigate. These are not satisfied to condemn on the basis of hearsay. They want the true facts.

When one studies the early history of Christianity, he discovers that indeed it was everywhere spoken against. The world hated the church. Christians were looked upon as the lowest kind of people and were dealt with as criminals. Those whose decisions and attitudes are determined by public opinion would have been turned against God's people. Only those who care enough to learn for themselves will discover the true meaning and beauty of the gospel of Christ.

Religious prejudice is among the most tragic of Satan's devices. Prejudice means that one makes up his mind before he understands the facts. False teachers often keep their followers from the truth by misrepresenting those who teach the truth. Such a person is found in Acts, chapter 13. He was Elymus the sorcerer who sought to turn Sergius Paulus away for the truth. Elymus was not the last who has tried to poison minds against God's word and His church.

Not long ago, a woman said that she had been led to believe that the churches of Christ preach salvation by works--that is, that a person could do something to earn his salvation. Of course, we hastened to correct this misunderstanding by pointing out that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by the blood of Christ when through faith he obeys the commands of God. But this woman had been given a false impression. We are thankful that she chose to investigate further.

Another such incident occurred in connection with a series presented on evolution. Someone who had not heard the talks was told that we were preaching against science. This, of course, was not true. There was no attack against true science. We spoke against evolution, which is incompatible with both science and Scripture. But those who advocate evolution would like to prejudice people against a fair investigation on the facts.

My friend, are you listening? Don’t be turned against the truth by those who speak against it. Teachers of error know that their doctrine cannot withstand the attack of truth Hence, they must use prejudice to keep people confused. The Bible admonishes, "Prove all things, hold fact to that which is good" (1 Thess. 5:21. We should always search the scriptures to know what is true. Continue to seek the Lord and have a great day.

JustAChristian

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

I don't know how many times I have said that we need to remain within the context. "Save" in the context, is not talking about save in light of Romans 10:9. It is talking about saved in the sense of being whole in one's soul and physical well being, delivered from hurt or harm...etc. He gives the explanation of "save" in the context.

I don't quite understand what you're getting at. If you're insisting that this faith only effects the physical well-being of a person, you are wrong. James is speaking about the same faith in all of the chapters of his book, which certainly does effect our salvation. The Bible speaks that there is one faith that matters in terms of salvation, and James would preach that faith.

The word "save" in James 2 certainly has a bearing on salvation, it speaks of the same type of works that condemned the people to hell in Matt 25:41-46. You have NO evidence to suggest that James would talk about a faith that does not have a bearing on our salvation.

LOL. How silly can we get?

So, I brought it to your attention that you added a work required for salvation (confession from the mouth), and this is your answer. Pathetic. It's hard to admit when you're wrong isn't it.

I said no such thing. For me to say that works saves us is for me to say that simply doing works saves us. I've never said that. You've gotta have faith that is alive with works, that's what saves, which is what I've been saying this entire time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah...right. If you say they were sent to hell because they did no works, than that is you saying that works is necessary for salvation. You can't get around. You speak with a false and double tongue.

Here, listen closely, and maybe you'll understand what I've been trying to tell you. Works does NOT save us. Works plays a role in our salvation. Yes, believe it or not, God actually requires us to DO something to be saved.

There is a difference between works saving us, and having works play a role in our salvation.

I'm still waiting for you, or somebody else to show how one can "DO" the will of the Father without DOING something! If you don't DO the will of the Father, you can forget about heaven.

AGAIN, either we are saved by faith ALONE or not. GOD SAYS: We are saved by faith ALONE...NOT OF WORKS.

Gee, that's funny, I fail to see the word "ALONE" anywhere in Ephesians 2:8. You wouldn't be adding to the word of God, now would you. And you say that I mishandle the word of God? Please....

I NEVER SAID FAITH BY ITSELF WHICH IS DEAD, NOR DID I SAY THAT A DEAD FAITH SAVES. YOU ARE A LIAR. Tsk Tsk, Kevin, putting "words" into my mouth which I did not say is a very underhanded and nasty thing to do and not pleasing in God's sight at all.

Now you're really starting to irritate me . Here is a direct quote from you:

We are saved by faith alone and good works follow.

Here is a direct quote from the Bible:

James 2:17 - "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

You say we are saved by "faith alone", which IS THE SAME FREAKING THING AS "FAITH BY ITSELF", WHICH THE APOSTLE JAMES SAYS IS DEAD!!!

Faith "ALONE" / "BY ITSELF" (same thing) is dead. You are saying that faith "ALONE" saves, which is a dead faith according to the apostle James. I am taking what you said and comparing what you said to what the Bible says. I AM NOT A LIAR. You don't think that James 2 is the same as the salvation faith spoken of in Romans 10:9, but I do, (there's ONE faith Eph. 4:5, NOT multiple) and you have yet to prove that it's not part of the SAME FAITH through which we are saved, especially since the things spoken of in chapter 2 were the downfall of the people spoken of in Matt 25:41-46, WHICH SENT THEM TO HELL!! Again, the Bible says there's ONE faith, and the faith spoken of in James 2 certainly is part of that ONE faith.

I asked for a verse that supports the idea that judgement has nothing to do with salvation, and you give me your unsupported rhetoric.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How would you know seeing thus far you do not know how to comprehend the Word because of your not caring enough to know the truth.

Thanks for confirmation what I said.

Ephesians 2:8,9 according to Kevin:

For by partial grace are ye somewhat saved through faith; and that of yourselves: [it is] the partial gift of God. AND of works, so man can boast.

Partial grace... where did I say that? Partial gift... where did I say that? Do works so man can boast... where did I say that? And you say I"M putting words into YOUR mouth? HYPOCRITE!

James is talking about those who are already SAVED AND HAVE FAITH! FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

Just because he is speaking to brethren makes no difference to the fact that we have to DO something to be saved. He's telling them to be doers of the work, not just hearers. The same goes for people who haven't accepted Christ, there are thing THEY must do as well, they must be DOERS of the word, which includes things like confessing Christ and being baptized into Him.... things anybody must DO.

TO GET SAVED IS BY FAITH ALONE

Show me in the Bible where it says that we are saved by faith "ALONE". Show me. You have yet to prove this, and you yourself acknowledged that we must confess with the mouth to be saved, which is SOMETHING BESIDES FAITH. A WORK THAT WE MUST DO. Baptism is another thing we must do to be saved... which is the whole point of this thread. Agape, you can end this WHOLE debate right now if you can show us anywhere in the New Testament that we are saved by faith "ONLY". Where is it?!

I SAID THE WORD SAVE IN JAMES 2 DOES NOT REFER TO SAVE MEANING SALVATION FAITH (ROMANS 10:9) AND I EXPLAINED WHAT "SAVE" MEANT IN THE CONTEXT OF JAMES 2. YOU ADDED: "THEN HE TRIED TO SAY THAT THE FAITH SPOKEN OF IN JAMES 2 IS NOT SPEAKING OF A FAITH THAT "EFFECTS" SALVATION."

You make no sense. You say that James 2 does not refer to the "salvation faith" spoken of in Romans 10:9, RIGHT? Well, being how there is only ONE faith that has to do with salvation, any other faith that is different shouldn't have an effect on salvation, right? If I'm wrong, and you believe James 2 "SAVE" does effect our salvation, how? If you don't believe that James 2 "SAVE" doesn't effect our salvation, then what is your problem in me confirming what you've said? You are a very confusing individual.

I will apologize for misunderstanding what you said, but I wouldn't knowingly spread lies about you. If I have unknowingly spread lies about you, I'm sorry.

 

[Kevin]

Evangelion,

I note with interest that the parable of the talents has been scrupulously ignored...

But of course! It's devastating to their arguement!

Oh, and just to throw it into the mix - if "works" are nothing more than an automatic response, why are we "judged according to them"?

Hehe.. I've said the same thing. Agape tried to tell me that Judgement Day doesn't effect our salvation. Can you believe it? Of course when I asked for a verse that says that Judgement Day doesn't have an effect on our salvation, I got nothing but empty rehtoric. Shocker. This is what he said:

When Christ returns for his Church, we will all stand before the "bema" and receive rewards for our "good works" only. No good works, no rewards. This has no bearing on our salvation whatsoever. Good works or no good works will not take away our salvation which came solely by the "works" of Jesus Christ. He saved us. You can do all the works you want...this does not save you. However, you will reap rewards for your good works which you do with the love of God in your heart.

P.S.- Thanks for sticking up for me back there (Agape calling me a liar) :up:

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

When does the spiritual baptism comes into place ,when you first go into the water or when you come out of the water????

When you come up out of the water, you are a new creature walking in the spririt, not in the flesh. What is so hard to understand about that?

Which baptism is more important the water baptism or the Spiritual baptism or which one allows us to put away our old man of sin ?????

It is water baptism in the name of the Lord which allows up to put away our old man of sin and walk in the newness of life with Christ.

To support this, I'm going to borrow some of Evangelion's work, because he did an absolutely magnificant job of illustrating why the baptism that saves is water baptism. See if you can answer his points. Here is the quote from him:

"only water baptism can truly represent the death, burial and resurrection of a believer.

Observe:

• You descend into the water (death.)
  
  
• You remain under the water for a moment (burial.)
  
  
• You rise from the water (resurrection.)

None of this occurs in so-called "Spirit baptism", and that is why the only baptism by which we can be "buried with Christ", is water baptism. So for those who advocate "Spirit baptism" over water baptism - how can "Spirit baptism" fulfil the necessary symbolism of death, burial and resurrection?

Perhaps it's time to ask a few questions. I'll present the "water baptism" side, and I invite a "Spirit baptism" person to fill in the blanks on his/her side:

• Are there three stages to "Spirit baptism"? (There are with water baptism.)
  
  
• Is there a stage in which death is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
  
  
• Is there a stage in which burial is represented? (There is with water baptism.)
  
  
• Is there a stage in which resurrection is represented? (There is with water baptism.)

Identification with Christ - his death, burial and resurrection - is made possible by the two simple rituals that he instituted. One of these was the partaking of the memorial emblems - bread and wine. The other was water baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for the remission of sins."

Another point is that the baptism the apostles practiced is the baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water. Knowing that there is only "ONE" baptism (Eph. 4:5), and knowing what the apostles practiced (water baptism in the name of the Lord), it wouldn't make sense for them to preach that there is "ONE" baptism, yet baptize with another baptism that isn't the "ONE" baptism . The apostles practiced what they preached, and they practiced baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses..... WATER.

here is the Quote from Agape which you laught about and said he didn`t say what I mention, but first let me put my Quote , and then his.

I was being sarcastic, c.moore. Sorry for the confusion. What I meant by that is that I don't consider what Agape says as "fact".

 

[Freak]

Kevin,

You stated: It is water baptism in the name of the Lord which allows up to put away our old man of sin and walk in the newness of life with Christ.


I'm glad I haven't bought into your twisted theology. I believe Jesus Himself allows us to put away our old man of sin. I didn't know He had to use water (something He created). That is a violent distortion of the truth of God's Word! Jesus is God. He is able to save without water.

Kevin, did you know Evangelion rejects Jesus being very God. Does this bother you?

 

[c.moore]

quote: c.moore
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here is the Quote from Agape which you laught about and said he didn`t say what I mention, but first let me put my Quote , and then his.
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Kevin
I was being sarcastic, c.moore. Sorry for the confusion. What I meant by that is that I don't consider what Agape says as "fact".

Quote c.moore
A Good excuse Kevin , but I would have admit I was just wrong.

peace

 

[Jerry Shugart]

First all we heard was no one can answer about the "sheep" and "goats".Over and over.Oh how proud they were.Over and over,the "Sheep and the Goats".

But when that was answered,instead of the water dogs answering the parable of the Good Shepherd,they now are saying,The parable of the tares, the parable of the tares.Over and over like a broken record.

What´s the matter boys,is there not at least one of you who will step up to the plate and answer the parable of the Good Shepherd?

I answered the"sheep and goats",but not one of you has even attempted to answer the parable of the Good Shepherd.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Evangelion]

Jerry, I presented the parable of the sheep and goats, the parable of the talents, the parable of the workers in the vineyard, and the parable of the two sons.

I presented them repeatedly, and I was repeatedly ignored. Agape took a shot at it, and decided to pull out. You took a shot at it, and only got as far as the parable of the two sons (which you mangled), and the parable of the sheep and goat (which you also mangled.) In both cases, you attempted to "explain" the parable by quoting other sources. In other words, you went to a place in the NT where the words you need are found, and then tried to insert them into a place where they cannot be found. This is called "eisegesis", and it is a bad thing.

Since you have accepted my challenge, I require you to address all of it. I shall let you off the parable of the two sons, because you did try hard with that one - but I can't let you off the others, because:

• You "explained" the parable of the sheep and goats by going to several other passages of Scripture and telling me what you thought they meant, and then tried to tell me that the parable of the sheep and goats means the same thing.
  
• You didn't address my two remaining parables.

When you can address all of my argument, I'll address what's left of yours,

But not before.


PS. My "symbolism/typology/baptism/death, burial, resurrection" argument remains unchallenged.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Evangelion,

In the prophecy concerning the"sheep and the goats" I went to a part of Scripture that relates to the very time frame that the time of the "sheep and goats" are set.

And you object to that.That is a pitiful excuse not to accept my interpretation.You also say that I mangles it,but you did not give even one Scriptual passages to back up your charge.

Talk is cheap!

Here is how you handled my words in regard to the words of John in his first epistle where he tells the Christians that they ALREADY possess "eternal life".First,we see that John tells them they have eternal life,and then he tells them that they KNOW that they have eternal life:

"And this is the record,that God HATH GIVEN TO US ETERNAL LIFE,and this life is in His Son...these things I have written to you ...that YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE"(1Jn.5:11,13).

And what is your answer?

You say that these verses are in reference to the FUTURE!

The future?It is obvious that these Christians KNOW that they have eternal life at the time that the epistle was written to them.If the words apply to the future,then how would it be possible for the Christians to KNOW that they possess eternal life?

Your answer is a JOKE! It only demonstrates that you have absolutely no respect for any Scripture that conflict with your false teaching.

This is the worse example of exegesis that I have ever seen.And it is beyond me how you have the nerve to criticize my interpretation of the prophecy of the "sheep and the goats".

I hope you do NOT even attempt to explain the parable of the Good Shepherd because it pains me to see the Holy Scriptures treated in such a contemptible manner.

In His grace,--Jerry