The Hebrew Epistles: Where Do They Fit?

[tetelestai]

There is only one congregation.

:up:

Christ is not divided.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

First, are you now saying that even though Paul told those in the church at Cornith that they were saved by believing the gospel that they really were not?:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).​

There were some unsaved people "among" those who believed the gospel who were teaching that there is no resurrection of the dead:

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?" (1 Cor.15:12).​

Those unbelievers who were "among" those who believed the gospel were not included in the church because those unbelievers denied the resurrection of the dead. They were not included in this group:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).​

Now back to my original question to you. You say that 1 Corinthians was written to those in the kingdom church. So are you now saying that members of the Body of Christ make up that kingdom church?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

 

[tetelestai]

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Did Paul call unbelievers "brothers and sisters"?

(1 Cor 15:1) Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

 

[Danoh]

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

I take those passages to mean; not that they were unbelievers, but that some of them were now confused - "if" then "your faith is in vain."

1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

"Unless ye..." fits Paul's recurrent pattern of speaking that way to believers, as in Romans 8's "but if ye be led of the Spirit," for example.

Again, thanks for sharing how you see some of these things...

 

[False Prophet]

You keep posting scriptures that have nothing to do with what you are preaching.

 

[Danoh]

You keep posting scriptures that have nothing to do with what you are preaching.

Lol - and you posted that absent of who specifically it had to do with. Cool avatar, though.

"This is a job - for Superman!"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain" (1 Cor.15:1-2).​

These words were addressed to members of the Body of Christ (see 1 Cor.12:13). There can be no doubt about that.

There are those in the Neo-MAD community who say that 1 Corinthians is addressed to kingdom churches so what do these people say about the words in "bold" above?

Do they teach those words are saying that the kingdom saints will remain saved as long as they keep in memory what Paul preached to them? Do they teach that those who received 1 Corinthians do not enjoy eternal security?

If 1 Corinthians is written to the kingdom church then do they argue that the following is the "gospel of the circumcision"?:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).​

If those who argue that 1 Corinthians is written to the kingdom church are correct then they need to answer a lot of questions. However, answers are in short supply among these people.

They still have not answered if they believe that members of the Body of Christ make up the kingdom church.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

First, are you now saying that even though Paul told those in the church at Cornith that they were saved by believing the gospel that they really were not?:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).​

There were some unsaved people "among" those who believed the gospel who were teaching that there is no resurrection of the dead:

"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?" (1 Cor.15:12).​

Those unbelievers who were "among" those who believed the gospel were not included in the church because those unbelievers denied the resurrection of the dead. They were not included in this group:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).​

Now back to my original question to you. You say that 1 Corinthians was written to those in the kingdom church. So are you now saying that members of the Body of Christ make up that kingdom church?:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Apparently some at Corinth, to whom Paul wrote, had believed in vain. Some said there was no such thing as resurrection.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Apparently some at Corinth, to whom Paul wrote, had believed in vain. Some said there was no such thing as resurrection.

No, there were some unbelievers "among" the believers who denied the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Those to whom Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians believed in the Lord's resurrection:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).​

When are you going to finally answer my question? You say that 1 Corinthians is written to the kingdom church and it is obvious that those who received 1 Corinthians were members of the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13). So do you teach that there are members of the Body of Christ in the kingdom church?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

No, there were some unbelievers "among" the believers who denied the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Those to whom Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians believed in the Lord's resurrection:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor.15:1-4).​

When are you going to finally answer my question? You say that 1 Corinthians is written to the kingdom church and it is obvious that those who received 1 Corinthians were members of the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13). So do you teach that there are members of the Body of Christ in the kingdom church?

To those he said "Unless you have believed in vain", he called brethren.

 

[tetelestai]

When are you going to finally answer my question? You say that 1 Corinthians is written to the kingdom church and it is obvious that those who received 1 Corinthians were members of the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13). So do you teach that there are members of the Body of Christ in the kingdom church?

He can't, and therefore won't answer the question, because he knows if he does, then his: "the church of God is a kingdom church" argument falls apart.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

]You say that 1 Corinthians is written to the kingdom church and it is obvious that those who received 1 Corinthians were members of the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13).

It was written to the Corinthians. The church of God was there, the Body of Christ was there, and people who had believed in vain were there.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

He can't, and therefore won't answer the question, because he knows if he does, then his: "the church of God is a kingdom church" argument falls apart.

As Tet continues to attempt to divide and conquer all dispensationalists, by pitting them one against the other, he fails to remember that Jerry believes the church of God was the kingdom church when Saul persecuted it.

 

[john w]

Let's take a good hard look at this John.

For it is you who are imposing Dispensation opinion on scripture.


Who wrote Acts?

Can we agree it was Luke?

Now we see in Acts 20 that at the time Paul spoke that Luke was with him.

13 And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed , minding himself to go afoot .

14 And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in , and came to Mitylene.


With me so far?

Now who was Luke?

Can you say one of those who was with Jesus and the twelve from the beginning?

From Gospel of Luke:

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,


Now granted Luke did not write in his Gospel that Jesus said those exact words.

That does not mean that he did not hear Jesus say it.

Or that when he was preaching in person that he didn't relate that Jesus said it.

Chances are Paul heard it from Luke or another disciple that had been with Jesus.

Paul hung out with more than one who had been with Jesus, take Barnabas for instance.

This is another reason why Nick's idea that Paul didn't write Hebrews is just another Dispy opinion.


Hebrews 2
3 How shall we escape , if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


So for Paul to be quoting them fellas would mean he believed em, dontcha think?


Acts 20:35 KJV I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

You missed his "argument," Jeff-pay attention, or put down your bong:


"The only way one can answer you is for both of us to recognize what exactly is IN the Bible as far as what Jesus says himself in the New Testament. "-him


Sit.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

To those he said "Unless you have believed in vain", he called brethren.

You obviously do not know what a first class conditional statement is.

According to your ideas those in the Body of Christ can lose their salvation. That is why you continue to refuse to answer this simple question:

You say that 1 Corinthians is written to the kingdom church and it is obvious that those who received 1 Corinthians were members of the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13). So do you teach that there are members of the Body of Christ in the kingdom church? ​

It was written to the Corinthians. The church of God was there, the Body of Christ was there, and people who had believed in vain were there.

first, you said that 1 Corinthians was written to the kingdom church. Now you say that it was written to the kingdom church as well as to the Body of Christ and people who had believed in vain.

You just make up your theology as you go along.

And I am not aware of any recognized MAD teacher who agrees with your convoluted teaching. In the Neo-MAD movement we hear over and over that the only epistles which apply to the Body of Christ are Romans through Philemon but now you say that 1 Corinthians is for the kingdom church!

 

[tetelestai]

he fails to remember that Jerry believes the church of God was the kingdom church when Saul persecuted it.

Then you're both wrong.

The church of God has always been believers in Christ Jesus, who are members of the Body of Christ

Why did Paul tell Timothy the following:

(1 Tim 3:5 KJV) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

According to you "the church of God" is another name for your "kingdom church". If so, why is Paul giving instructions about the church of God to Timothy?

 

[john w]

Ever off?

Those three men were Darby followers, what would you expect?

Stumped as again, wimp.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Then you're both wrong.

Oh.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You obviously do not know what a first class conditional statement is.

According to your ideas those in the Body of Christ can lose their salvation. That is why you continue to refuse to answer this simple question:

You say that 1 Corinthians is written to the kingdom church and it is obvious that those who received 1 Corinthians were members of the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13). So do you teach that there are members of the Body of Christ in the kingdom church? ​

Jerry, would you rather have fellowship with those whom you agree with on probably 90%, or be right about everything and try to force everyone else to agree with you?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I understand your defensiveness and alarm. Many of my posts draw from our long tradition of historical scholarship and contextual research--most of which we have not heard from the pulpit.

I tend to be more focused on raw data, evidence and facts uncovered by normal historical methodology. This does not mean that I discount or ignore theological, faith-based verses in the Bible. It means that I try to draw a difference between faith and facts.

Jesus was a preacher in first-century Palestine: that is a statement of FACT.

Jesus was the Messiah, Son of God, etc. Those are statements of FAITH.

For myself, I identify as a Christian because I see in the man Jesus the definitive disclosure of God on earth.

Everything I wrote musta zinged right over yer head.

Try believing what is written, then apply some common sense.