ECT The core of the argument between Christians and MAD.

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I asked my Mother when I was twelve year's old (1962) if we were
gonna go to Hell? She said to me; "Probably?" We weren't a church
going family. We attended random churches on Easter and Christmas!

My Mom and Dad would choose a "Lutheran or a Methodist" church, and
we'd attend one of those. (really didn't matter which!) About a week
after I asked my Mom that, 'poignant' question; "Are we gonna go to Hell,"
we moved into an apartment in Garden Grove California where my Sister
befriended a neighbor girl. Her Father happened to be an assistant at a
Non-Denominational Church that, held their services at the, "Church of
Reflections" at Knotts Berry Farm. Later they purchased their own Church
property in Anaheim California. They're still there to this day!

Anyway, My Sisters friendship with this neighbor girl allowed her family
to get together with our family, and both families became inseparable!
They witnessed, "The Lord Jesus Christ" to us. We started attending
church with them, and eventually, my Mom, Dad, Sister, and myself,
all became Christians! My Dad went to be with the Lord in 1971. My
Mom went to be with the Lord in 2008 at the tender age of 81.

My Sister and myself now live in two separate states. California is,
just a distant memory for both of us. My Father got a "Military
funeral" in 1971, he served in the Marine Corp in WW2. I brought
my Mom's ashes with me when I moved from California about 7
year's ago! I give you this background because, I want you and
others to know that, I believe we must, hear the Message (Romans
10:17) before placing our faith in Christ, as our personal Savior!

The Grace of God is offered to all (Ephesians 2: 8-9) not to just a
few, "Chosen Elect!" God's Grace is offered as a gift and it comes
through, our faith! My family all became "True Believers" after,
hearing the Message of God's mercy, forgiveness, and eternal
life! We all, placed our faith in that Message. That Message being
that, Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind and was raised from
the dead, and through faith in what He accomplished for us; "those"
who place their faith in Him alone, we have eternal life and will "not"
stand before God and be judged according to our "works!" We have
His righteousness! Our families eventual relationship with God, began
with a question from a 12 year old inquisitive young boy! "Mom, are
we gonna go to Hell?" The answer from ABOVE came, NO!!

 

[Nang]

I asked my Mother when I was twelve year's old (1962) if we were
gonna go to Hell? She said to me; "Probably?" We weren't a church
going family. We attended random churches on Easter and Christmas!

My Mom and Dad would choose a "Lutheran or a Methodist" church, and
we'd attend one of those. (really didn't matter which!) About a week
after I asked my Mom that, 'poignant' question; "Are we gonna go to Hell,"
we moved into an apartment in Garden Grove California where my Sister
befriended a neighbor girl. Her Father happened to be an assistant at a
Non-Denominational Church that, held their services at the, "Church of
Reflections" at Knotts Berry Farm. Later they purchased their own Church
property in Anaheim California. They're still there to this day!

Anyway, My Sisters friendship with this neighbor girl allowed her family
to get together with our family, and both families became inseparable!
They witnessed, "The Lord Jesus Christ" to us. We started attending
church with them, and eventually, my Mom, Dad, Sister, and myself,
all became Christians! My Dad went to be with the Lord in 1971. My
Mom went to be with the Lord in 2008 at the tender age of 81.

My Sister and myself now live in two separate states. California is,
just a distant memory for both of us. My Father got a "Military
funeral" in 1971, he served in the Marine Corp in WW2. I brought
my Mom's ashes with me when I moved from California about 7
year's ago! I give you this background because, I want you and
others to know that, I believe we must, hear the Message (Romans
10:17) before placing our faith in Christ, as our personal Savior!

The Grace of God is offered to all (Ephesians 2: 8-9) not to just a
few, "Chosen Elect!" God's Grace is offered as a gift and it comes
through, our faith! My family all became "True Believers" after,
hearing the Message of God's mercy, forgiveness, and eternal
life! We all, placed our faith in that Message. That Message being
that, Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind and was raised from
the dead, and through faith in what He accomplished for us; "those"
who place their faith in Him alone, we have eternal life and will "not"
stand before God and be judged according to our "works!" We have
His righteousness! Our families eventual relationship with God, began
with a question from a 12 year old inquisitive young boy! "Mom, are
we gonna go to Hell?" The answer from ABOVE came, NO!!

Great!

You believe all sinners will be saved. I get it.

So, why do you deny me my testimony of salvation, and curse me to hell, just because I believe God is a Covenantal Sovereign God?

IOW's, if according to you all are saved by the blood of Christ, on what scriptural basis do you deny I am saved? On what grounds do you judge me to hell, if Jesus saved all, and I testify I believe?

 

[Right Divider]

And verse 18
Acts 9:18
Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,

I maintain he was filled with the Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him and the scales fell from Saul's eyes.

This happened in Acts 8 as well. In fact people HAD been baptized but had not received the Holy Spirit until hands were laid on them.

Acts 8:15-17
When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

The scripture does NOT tell us whether water was involved in Saul's baptism or not. Most folks are so brain-washed that whenever they hear "bapti" anything, they ASSUME WATER. I believe that it's far more likely that Saul/Paul's baptism was a SPIRIT baptism.

1Co 12:12-13 KJV For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

That would be far more consistent with Paul's witness and his PATTERN for us (1 Tim 1:16).

 

[Mocking You]

The scripture does NOT tell us whether water was involved in Saul's baptism or not. Most folks are so brain-washed that whenever they hear "bapti" anything, they ASSUME WATER. I believe that it's far more likely that Saul/Paul's baptism was a SPIRIT baptism.

1Co 12:12-13 KJV For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.​

That would be far more consistent with Paul's witness and his PATTERN for us (1 Tim 1:16).

Acts 9:18b He got up and was baptized

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

"Get up and be baptized" To me this indicates an action he needs to take that can't be completed where he was located. He needed to find water. This was a water baptism.

 

[Arsenios]

I believe salvation has been worked according to unconditional elective grace upon the O.T. saints, the same as for the N.T. saints.

All salvation is the result of Divine Covenant (Godly Decree) that is eternal and not subject to times, cultures, or change at all.

I seriously invite you to consider the difference between Old Testament Salvation and that given to those baptized into Christ in light of Christ saying of John the Baptist that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than him...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Sounds like a reading selection from a catechism because I know it's not from the Bible!

Which part were you unable to find?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

And verse 18
Acts 9:18
Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,

I maintain he was filled with the Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him and the scales fell from Saul's eyes.

The text does not support your maintainance...

This happened in Acts 8 as well. In fact people HAD been baptized but had not received the Holy Spirit until hands were laid on them.

Acts 8:15-17
When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Yes, it is people who, by the laying on of hands, confer the Holy Spirit... In the case of Paul, Ananias laid his hands on him upon his coming into the room, and THEN said he would restore his sight AND fill him with the Holy Spirit... And IMMEDIATELY his sight was restored, and THEN he was Baptized, which gives the Holy Spirit...

Here shows the sequencing:

Act 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said,
"Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest,
hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight,
and
be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales:
and he received sight forthwith,
and arose,
and was baptized.


Arsenios

 

[Nang]

I seriously invite you to consider the difference between Old Testament Salvation and that given to those baptized into Christ in light of Christ saying of John the Baptist that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than him...


Arsenios

What can the difference be? Sinners can only be redeemed by the grace of God and resurrected to new spiritual life by the power of God. I know of no other salvation.

 

[Arsenios]

The scripture does NOT tell us whether water was involved in Saul's baptism or not. Most folks are so brain-washed that whenever they hear "bapti" anything, they ASSUME WATER. I believe that it's far more likely that Saul/Paul's baptism was a SPIRIT baptism.

​

1 - You do not get to re-write the Bible...
2 - Jewish Christians baptized in water...
3 - Thank-you for showing us the inside of your mental approach to Scripture...
4 - You are not alone here, unfortunately...

The Greek text reads "For WITHIN one Spirit are we all baptized into ONE Body, whether Jews or Greeks..."

You still think these two races have two different gospels, don't you, even though they are BOTH baptized into ONE Body in ONE Spirit...

Yet here, even with Paul saying Jews and Greeks are all baptized into the SAME Body in ONE Spirit, you insist on your demonic division of the Gospel of Christ...

Sigh...

Arsenios​

 

[Arsenios]

What can the difference be?

The enhypostatic union of the fallen human person with the Person of Christ...
Christians baptized into Christ have it...
The Prophets did not...

That is why Christ said that the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven [eg those baptized into Christ] is greater than the GREATEST of the Holy Prophets of God... He is referring to the PERSONS not enhypostatically joined with Christ being less than those who ARE so conjoined...

Christians are a NEW CREATION...

We ARE whom the Prophets, who only had Christ pre-incarnately in the Holy Spirit, foretold... This is WHY Christ incarnated, taking on human nature in Himself, that in Him, we should be reborn into a New Creation conjoined with Him...

It is an absolutely crucial point...

Without it, Christ is little more than asbestos for us...

With it, we recover from the Fall of Adam...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I asked my Mother when I was twelve year's old (1962) if we were
gonna go to Hell? She said to me; "Probably?" We weren't a church
going family. We attended random churches on Easter and Christmas!

My Mom and Dad would choose a "Lutheran or a Methodist" church, and
we'd attend one of those. (really didn't matter which!) About a week
after I asked my Mom that, 'poignant' question; "Are we gonna go to Hell,"
we moved into an apartment in Garden Grove California where my Sister
befriended a neighbor girl. Her Father happened to be an assistant at a
Non-Denominational Church that, held their services at the, "Church of
Reflections" at Knotts Berry Farm. Later they purchased their own Church
property in Anaheim California. They're still there to this day!

Anyway, My Sisters friendship with this neighbor girl allowed her family
to get together with our family, and both families became inseparable!
They witnessed, "The Lord Jesus Christ" to us. We started attending
church with them, and eventually, my Mom, Dad, Sister, and myself,
all became Christians! My Dad went to be with the Lord in 1971. My
Mom went to be with the Lord in 2008 at the tender age of 81.

My Sister and myself now live in two separate states. California is,
just a distant memory for both of us. My Father got a "Military
funeral" in 1971, he served in the Marine Corp in WW2. I brought
my Mom's ashes with me when I moved from California about 7
year's ago! I give you this background because, I want you and
others to know that, I believe we must, hear the Message (Romans
10:17) before placing our faith in Christ, as our personal Savior!

The Grace of God is offered to all (Ephesians 2: 8-9) not to just a
few, "Chosen Elect!" God's Grace is offered as a gift and it comes
through, our faith! My family all became "True Believers" after,
hearing the Message of God's mercy, forgiveness, and eternal
life! We all, placed our faith in that Message. That Message being
that, Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind and was raised from
the dead, and through faith in what He accomplished for us; "those"
who place their faith in Him alone, we have eternal life and will "not"
stand before God and be judged according to our "works!" We have
His righteousness! Our families eventual relationship with God, began
with a question from a 12 year old inquisitive young boy! "Mom, are
we gonna go to Hell?" The answer from ABOVE came, NO!!

Thank-you, GM...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Acts 9:18b He got up and was baptized

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

"Get up and be baptized" To me this indicates an action he needs to take that can't be completed where he was located. He needed to find water. This was a water baptism.

Great point...

I had missed it...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Nang]

The enhypostatic union of the fallen human person with the Person of Christ...
Christians baptized into Christ have it...
The Prophets did not...

I believe all men gifted with faith to believe and proclaim the covenant promises of Messiah were/are in spiritual union with Christ.

Christians are a NEW CREATION...

Agreed . . . But we are not spiritually different than those chosen by God prior to the Incarnation to be redeemed by whom they prophesied!

I believe all the O.T. elect sons of God (Abel, Seth, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, the prophets and all faithful saints listed in Hebrews Chapter 11) were saved, and are part of the eternal, invisible church.

By the saving mercies and grace gifted by Christ, their anticipated Messiah.

 

[Arsenios]

I believe all men gifted with faith to believe and proclaim the covenant promises of Messiah were/are in spiritual union with Christ.

Agreed . . . But we are not spiritually different than those chosen by God prior to the Incarnation to be redeemed by whom they prophesied!

I believe all the O.T. elect sons of God (Abel, Seth, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, the prophets and all faithful saints listed in Hebrews Chapter 11) were saved, and are part of the eternal, invisible church.

By the saving mercies and grace gifted by Christ, their anticipated Messiah.

The difference is not Spiritual... From a subjective point of view, I do not know how one could differentiate one from the other... Being "IN the Spirit" is the same in both... And I agree they are both saved, but that Christ harvested the OT faithful from Hell when he died on the Cross and was buried... He got them out of there, as Hebrews attests, and they had to await His arrival in Hell from the Cross before they could be saved with us from Hell...

When Christ spoke His words, that the least is greater than the greatest, he was not speaking of gifts... I don't think so anyway... He was speaking of their person, and not their Spiritual Gifts...

Kick the question around in your Bible Study group:

What is the difference between OT and NT Salvation from God?

They are two different Salvations, yet they are much alike...

Arsenios

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I only claim the Reformed faith.




Are you sick? I said nothing of the kind, and you cannot quote me as saying anything close to your lying accusations.



God is my witness that my testimony is true. You are the poster that is not true.




I rejoice that God transferred me from the darkness of unbelief, to the light of belief in His grace. Why do you react so negatively to such a wonderful work of God?

Why not take a vacation? That way you can go somewhere and
share your grouchiness with some strangers? I'm sure they'll
be accepting of you!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Great!

You believe all sinners will be saved. I get it.

So, why do you deny me my testimony of salvation, and curse me to hell, just because I believe God is a Covenantal Sovereign God?

IOW's, if according to you all are saved by the blood of Christ, on what scriptural basis do you deny I am saved? On what grounds do you judge me to hell, if Jesus saved all, and I testify I believe?

I didn't say that, and you know it!! You're a real deceiver as well
as the grouchiest/crankiest poster on TOL! That would be
Universalism! I have NEVER advocated that in any of my posts!
You really are a deceiver, woman! You're a Calvinist, pure and
simple! Don't try and hide behind, reform religion. Both are the
same, by the way, so far as GM is concerned! :up:

By the way "Deceiver" where did I say you were going to Hell? Post # please??

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I have never told ANYONE on this forum that, for a certainty, they're
going to Hell!! Nang is lying! She won't be able to produce any proof
of her accusation!!

As long as one lives, they have an opportunity to hear "Paul's Gospel" and
respond in faith!

 

[Mocking You]

And IMMEDIATELY his sight was restored, and THEN he was Baptized, which gives the Holy Spirit...

You can keep repeating that baptism gives a person the Holy Spirit but I'll go with the Word of God:

Acts 8:15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Arsenios]

You can keep repeating that baptism gives a person the Holy Spirit but I'll go with the Word of God:

:up: Me too!

Acts 8:15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

This but shows that the Holy Spirit is given AFTER being baptized into Christ. It is then that the Anointing, by hands and chrism and prayer, is given to the one who has emerged from the Waters of Baptism... Just as it happened with Christ Himself:

Mark 1:10
And straightway coming up out of the water,
He saw the heavens opened,
and the Spirit like a dove
descending upon Him:

It also shows the Holy Spirit being given by MEN to BELIEVERS within the Body of Christ...

There are two distinct actions here - One is Baptism into Christ, and the other is the Anointing given by men to the one baptized that gives the Holy Spirit as a Power to him or her... The first establishes a change in your human nature in that it is now JOINED TOGETHER WITH Christ, and the second transfers Power from the Holy Spirit, as happened at Pentecost, and again, establishing Baptism for the Gentiles, with Cornelius at Peter's preaching to them...

The Laying on of Hands, btw, is used in the Church in many ways to confer the Grace of the Holy Spirit for many different purposes...

So I stand corrected here by you...

The issues are not as simple as I was putting them out to be...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'll go with the Word of God:

So MoYo, I do have a smallish question for you...
It is about your new Avatar...
He seems to be a lovely child...
No question about THAT!

And he seems to have his little finger, you know...
His little finger in his mouth, you can see...
And I do need your help here...
Because you KNOW him and I do not...

And I will not say even one word...
About Biblical knowing, OK?
But the question keeps intruding...
That little finger at his teeth...

And so I will ask you...
Because it is YOUR NEW Avatar...
Did he actually just finish...
I mean...

With that finger, you see...
It is Soooooo close right there...
I mean, MoYo, you have to tell me...
And you must tell me true...

And you DO know HOW I FEEL, right??
I mean, about LIES, you know?
So you have to coddle MY FEELINGS here...
And be a friendly person this one time, yes?

I mean, right there, in that Avatar pic...
The finger slightly into the mouth...
Right there at the teeth, you can see it...
And just above the fingernail...

IS A BIG OL'

NOSTRIL!!!

Just askin', OK?




Arsenios