HisServant
New member
It historically never has been respected... Popes have had kids, so have cardinals, priests, nuns, etc. The entire celibacy thing is a ruse.
the church
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
It historically never has been respected... Popes have had kids, so have cardinals, priests, nuns, etc. The entire celibacy thing is a ruse.
you have four choices
-Jesus did't put anyone in charge
-Jesus put peter in charge
-Jesus put paul in charge
-Jesus put james in charge
-we think Jesus put peter in charge because we can find that church
-so your only choice is that Jesus did not put anyone in charge
-good luck with that
the church is controlled by men
-and
-they are all sinners
-so
-we are not surprised at what you will continue to say
God's Truth
New member
I understand what you mean. However, the King James Version says 'it'; and rightly so.
The Catholic denomination is not the Church.
The church are those people who are saved.
themuzicman
Well-known member
None of these three speak to the appropriateness of referring to the Church as "she."
themuzicman
Well-known member
Actually, if you do a bit of digging into Matthew, you find that Matthew makes Peter the representative of the group, and in that sense, we can see the apostles are the foundation of the Church, and Jesus isn't actually "putting anyone in charge", but rather stating the authority they would have as the a new Church began.
I wonder why you make light of his vision, in saying "only." Peter was the first Apostle to convert Jews, and then Gentiles (without them first converting to Judaism).
I didn't say that it was.
The Church's.
So? You've got your take, and I've got mine. There is no church built upon James, but there very definitely is one built upon Peter.
Besides, I think you're reading into the Acts 15 account a bit. Who was this James? He wasn't an Apostle (James the Apostle was murdered in Acts 12), this was somebody else. Are you suggesting (I don't think you are, but to be thorough I'll ask) that the Apostles were not the "heavies" in the Church? There were still 11 of them in Acts 15. Do you think that James could have judged against Peter and the other Apostles? Do you believe that he or any other non-Apostle had that kind of authority? Because I don't, but it looks as if you are suggesting that this was the case.
I agree . . . "IF." But what you are presenting is that the IF is true, and I cannot find that in the Scripture. Instead, whenever the Apostle John penned his Gospel, which was after Peter had departed (Jn21:19), and so it was during either Linus's or Anacletus's papal reign as archbishop of the particular church (diocese) in the city of Rome---depending upon when John wrote his Gospel---he had the perfect opportunity to dispel a rumor or false belief that Peter was in fact the supreme pastor of our Lord's Church, and that Peter's successors were legitimate; being the last living Apostle.
Instead of invalidating the papacy with his Apostolic authority, which he could have done, and would have done, if the Holy See was indeed a creation of man rather than our Lord's own idea, John introduced a new account: John 21 in which our Lord interrogated Peter on the beach, and told him to "Feed," "Tend," and, "Feed" (Jn21:15,16,17).
I don't know what you think of that, but this in combination with Matthew 16:18-19 and with the historical fact of the papacy's primacy (Clement's epistle to the Corinthians confirms that Rome's archbishop was seen before the close the of the first century as supreme) leads me to believe that the Holy Catholic version of events is the right one.
themuzicman
Well-known member
Who's judgment?
There is ONE church that claims to be built on Peter. There are several that Scripture reveals were built upon Paul (Corinth, Thessolonica, Ephesus, Phillipi, Berea, etc.)
It would seem the evidence points to James having authority over Peter, rather than vice versa.
The Church's.
The Holy Orthodox also claim that Antioch is a Petrine see.
And our Lord never said to Paul, "Upon you I will build My Church" (cf. Mt16:18)
So you do in fact maintain that though there were 11 living Apostles in Acts 15 that the non-Apostle James had authority over them.
Yikes.
I disagree.
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HisServant
New member
It's really disturbing that people don't understand what the keys were all about and how they were temporarily given to Peter until Jesus returned after the resurrection.
They keys are currently with the Holy Spirit who ministers to us in Jesus stead.
Then there is the little bit about Jesus refusing to give primacy to any single apostle, even when they argued among themselves.
If Jesus did not know who would have primacy (be the greatest).. why do you think later he contradicted what he said?.. did he lie?
And like I said before, if Peter was given primacy, then it wasn't that much of an important thing because the Holy Spirit apparently forget to inspire the 3 other Gospel writers to include that tidbit.
brewmama
New member
No it isn't. Why don't you try looking it up, rather than act like you know what you are talking about??
"Pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, generally age 11 years or younger.[1][2] As a medical diagnosis, specific criteria for the disorder extend the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13"
themuzicman
Well-known member
Same place the Peter church is. Part of Christ's church.
KingdomRose
New member
Gros....would a guy go by the name of KingdomRose?
KingdomRose
New member
So turning away as if one doesn't see, and transferring a predator around is O.K.?
KingdomRose
New member
They haven't died yet! That is ahead for them.
KingdomRose
New member
You aren't clear in your arguments because you often neglect to state what scripture you are referring to. I thought you were referring to IPeter 3:18-20. But I guess you were talking about IPeter 4:6. IPeter 4:6 is a whole different ball game. Taking into consideration that the scriptures say that the dead are conscious of nothing (Eccles.9:5,10), we know that Peter must have been talking about the spiritually dead. There are references to the spiritually dead quite often in the scriptures, I'm sure you know. There is a cross-reference in the margin there at that verse in IPeter 4:6, and it takes us to Ephesians 2:1 where it refers to being spiritually dead:
"Furthermore, it is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins." (Ephesians 2:1)
"Jesus said to him: 'Keep following me, and let the dead bury their dead.'" (Matthew 8:22)
linger: (As in this little picture.)
KingdomRose
New member
I know about this. You know, it's almost comical that people pull out of the air the same incidents over and over. Another person wanted to bring to my attention the "large-scale" occurences of JWs molesting children, and she came up with that same incident! I can count on one hand the number of incidents that have happened world-wide concerning JWs, that have been reported in the news. Compare that with the THOUSANDS of incidents reported world-wide concerning RCC clergy. The incident in Australia is somewhat unsettling, but most of the events---if examined carefully---can be seen to be mostly blown out of proportion to what really happened. A hand-full of JW incidents compared to many thousands of incidents involving Catholic clergy.
KingdomRose
New member
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are MANY. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'" (Matthew 7:13,14, & 21-23, New American Bible/ Official Catholic Bible)