ST. JOHN 11:26

[Derf]

The thought that I am thinking is about how the second resurrection is not the second death. Can you see why I would say this here?

No, second resurrection is not the second death, as resurrection starts from a point of death and ends in a point of life. Death starts from a point of life and ends in a point of death. They are opposite, and opposites can't be equal.

But a second death implies a first death and a resurrection, else there's nothing to die the second time.

 

[Jacob]

The second resurrection is not the second death... the second resurrection is coming back to life from the first death. On the other side of that second resurrection is either a) eternal life or b) the second death.

If you meant to say that the second resurrection does not lead to the second death then I am not sure why you would say that (if so could you please elaborate?)

I am confused by your post. Please don't ask why I am confused. I don't know. However, I may have provided you with something you are confused by. The second resurrection is not spoken of. What I am saying is that not all end up in the lake of fire unless it says so. So, what does it say?

 

[Jacob]

No, second resurrection is not the second death, as resurrection starts from a point of death and ends in a point of life. Death starts from a point of life and ends in a point of death. They are opposite, and opposites can't be equal.

But a second death implies a first death and a resurrection, else there's nothing to die the second time.

This view is that a second death implies a first death. Is this for an individual or individuals? Or, something else?

 

[Rosenritter]

How do we know that we are part of that group? Were all the members of the churches Paul was writing to included? Are you one of those just because you attended one of those churches?

Now look at it from God's perspective, if possible. How would he determine if someone is wholly committed to Him? One example is Abraham's almost sacrifice of Lot. God said [Gen 22:12 KJV] ...now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

What other tests might God require us to pass to see if we really fear Him? I'm not sure, but Rev 20 give us a clue:
[Rev 20:4 KJV] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

It doesn't say that every believer will be raised form the dead at that first resurrection--only those that were beheaded for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and had not worshipped the beast or his imgae or received the mark. The wording could mean only those killed for the gospel would be resurrected at that time, and not all believers. And that would be a test similar to Abraham's.

Paul speaks in the encompassing "we" sense when he speaks to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Rosenritter]

I am confused by your post. Please don't ask why I am confused. I don't know. However, I may have provided you with something you are confused by. The second resurrection is not spoken of. What I am saying is that not all end up in the lake of fire unless it says so. So, what does it say?

1. You are right in pointing out that the term "the second resurrection" is inferred rather than specifically named. What I meant was when the "rest of the dead" live again (Revelation 20:5 & Revelation 20:12-13.)

2,. You are correct in that it does not state that all (of the rest of the dead) end up in the lake of fire. It actually says:

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

coupled with

Revelation 21:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Summarizing:

1. The resurrection of the rest of the dead is promised (even of those who are not righteous) to which Paul confirms his belief in Acts.

2. Although there are those in Christ who are already raised (this is called the first resurrection) those who were dead but were had not already raised will be alive for that judgment

3. On the other side of that judgment, there are two possible results:
a) an ending, to be destroyed in fire, also called the second death. The opposite of life.
b) a beginning, to enter into life and the holy city, to drink of the waters of life that flow freely for all that thirst. Eternal life, the opposite of death.

 

[Rosenritter]

This view is that a second death implies a first death. Is this for an individual or individuals? Or, something else?

This might be relevant?

Hebrews 9:27-28 KJV
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24 KJV
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:35-37 KJV
(35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
(36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
(37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

 

[Jacob]

1. You are right in pointing out that the term "the second resurrection" is inferred rather than specifically named. What I meant was when the "rest of the dead" live again (Revelation 20:5 & Revelation 20:12-13.)

2,. You are correct in that it does not state that all (of the rest of the dead) end up in the lake of fire. It actually says:

Revelation 20:14-15 KJV
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

coupled with

Revelation 21:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Summarizing:

1. The resurrection of the rest of the dead is promised (even of those who are not righteous) to which Paul confirms his belief in Acts.

2. Although there are those in Christ who are already raised (this is called the first resurrection) those who were dead but were had not already raised will be alive for that judgment

3. On the other side of that judgment, there are two possible results:
a) an ending, to be destroyed in fire, also called the second death. The opposite of life.
b) a beginning, to enter into life and the holy city, to drink of the waters of life that flow freely for all that thirst. Eternal life, the opposite of death.

This might be relevant?

Hebrews 9:27-28 KJV
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24 KJV
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:35-37 KJV
(35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
(36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
(37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

I do believe in life after death. I do not understand everything about it. For example, what of unbelievers, the wicked, or the unjust? And yet, I have read St. John 11:26 and I wonder if those who believe right, and would I be included, would I never die? Where does judgment come in with the born again and justified believer too?

 

[lifeisgood]

... I'm not sure why you conclude that marked blue portion above.

Salvation will still be going on at the time of the tribulation, the great (as the Greek has it); however, if I am not mistaken, their lives will have to be forfeited and martyred (soul of the saints under the throne - Rev. 6). The book of Revelation is talking about then, not now. The tribulation, the great is a specific tribulation, such, that there will never be another one like it ever again. Jesus said so. Therefore, when I read the book of Revelation, I think of that time. The BOC will not be part of the tribulation, the great.

Yes, I do know that Christians have always been under tribulation since the beginning, at different times more tribulation than at other times. However, it is not the tribulation, the great, Jesus spoke about.

 

[lifeisgood]

I do believe in life after death. I do not understand everything about it. For example, what of unbelievers, the wicked, or the unjust? And yet, I have read St. John 11:26 and I wonder if those who believe right, and would I be included, would I never die? Where does judgment come in with the born again and justified believer too?

The Bible is written to and for Believers, not to unbelievers. Yes, I know, it talks about unbelievers (Ahab, Jezebel, etc.), however, the Bible was not written for unbelievers.

No unbeliever believes that the Bible is true.

For Believers all in the Bible is good at the end.
For unbelievers all in the Bible is bad at the end.

I do not believe the Bible speaks of annihilation.
I believe the physical body does die and returns to dust from whence it came, however, we do not die (and that include every single person in the whole world, be he/she Believer or unbeliever), for we can see from Luke 16 that Abraham, Lazarus, and the one asking for a drop of water on his tongue were alive.

Jesus is alive right now at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
No one has ever been able to prove that Jesus did not resurrect, and I mean, ever, and it has not been for lack of trying.

I prefer to believe the Bible than the conjecture of unbelieving men.

 

[Derf]

Paul speaks in the encompassing "we" sense when he speaks to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

He speaks similarly to the Thessalonians
[1Th 4:14 KJV] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[1Th 4:15 KJV] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[1Th 4:16 KJV] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1Th 4:17 KJV] Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Does the phrase "the dead in Christ" exclude anyone in the church back then? Or today? Seems like it might. What about "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again" in vs 14 (above)?

Or does "the last trump" talk about a different time than the one before the millennium? That's a common pre-trib rapture position, but it gives us a third resurrection, and one that occurs before the "first" one in Rev 20.

Your 1 Cor 15 passage (and preceding) seem to talk against the idea of multiple resurrections for the saved: [1Co 15:23 ESV] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Does God know which are saved? Has He already done a judgment of some sort in order to raise them from the dead at this point rather than the later resurrection?

 

[Rosenritter]

I do believe in life after death. I do not understand everything about it. For example, what of unbelievers, the wicked, or the unjust? And yet, I have read St. John 11:26 and I wonder if those who believe right, and would I be included, would I never die? Where does judgment come in with the born again and justified believer too?

As per John 11:26, those who believe in Christ shall never die, meaning that this is a promise to be fulfilled in the resurrection. It isn't an immunity to the death from this life, but the promise of immortality in the future. These are raised from the dead and made immortal.

As for unbelievers? Wicked? Unjust? They are raised from the dead and stand before God. There are only two outcomes of that judgment: passing into life, or destroyed unto death. I cannot tell you how any specific person will be judged, but I do see how Jesus says he will separate sheep from goats, how he does not reject the broken and contrite heart, how God does not reject sincere repentance.

Where does judgment enter for the believer? We are given indication by means of parable. They who have been faithful with little are given responsibility over greater. Does Christ give the person who buried their talent rule over ten cities?

 

[Rosenritter]

Salvation will still be going on at the time of the tribulation...

Is there a time (or a reason) when you would say that salvation would not be "still going on?"

 

[Rosenritter]

The Bible is written to and for Believers, not to unbelievers. Yes, I know, it talks about unbelievers (Ahab, Jezebel, etc.), however, the Bible was not written for unbelievers.

No unbeliever believes that the Bible is true.

For Believers all in the Bible is good at the end.
For unbelievers all in the Bible is bad at the end.

I do not believe the Bible speaks of annihilation.
I believe the physical body does die and returns to dust from whence it came, however, we do not die (and that include every single person in the whole world, be he/she Believer or unbeliever), for we can see from Luke 16 that Abraham, Lazarus, and the one asking for a drop of water on his tongue were alive.

Genesis 3:3-4 KJV
(3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
(4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

John 8:24 KJV
(24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

There are two different messages there: "you shall die" and "you shall not die." One of those is truthful and one is a lie. Be careful of which side you support.

Even the parable of Lazarus says that he died. It does not say he was alive" neither he, nor the rich man nor Abraham are alive: they are figures in a colorful story. And have you ever considered why everyone in that story is specifically named except the rich man? Why does he have five brothers? Why are we told so many other details about him?

 

[Rosenritter]

He speaks similarly to the Thessalonians
[1Th 4:14 KJV] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[1Th 4:15 KJV] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[1Th 4:16 KJV] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1Th 4:17 KJV] Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Does the phrase "the dead in Christ" exclude anyone in the church back then? Or today? Seems like it might. What about "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again" in vs 14 (above)?

I think that "the dead in Christ" is inclusive and self-defined. That would be all the dead (in Christ) when He returns.

Or does "the last trump" talk about a different time than the one before the millennium? That's a common pre-trib rapture position, but it gives us a third resurrection, and one that occurs before the "first" one in Rev 20.

It would seem very strange if "the last trump" was followed by other trumpets... but that is what the "pre-tribulation rapture" position must require.

Your 1 Cor 15 passage (and preceding) seem to talk against the idea of multiple resurrections for the saved: [1Co 15:23 ESV] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Agreed.

Does God know which are saved? Has He already done a judgment of some sort in order to raise them from the dead at this point rather than the later resurrection?

I think so.

Malachi 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
(17) And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

 

[Jacob]

The Bible is written to and for Believers, not to unbelievers. Yes, I know, it talks about unbelievers (Ahab, Jezebel, etc.), however, the Bible was not written for unbelievers.

No unbeliever believes that the Bible is true.

For Believers all in the Bible is good at the end.
For unbelievers all in the Bible is bad at the end.

I do not believe the Bible speaks of annihilation.
I believe the physical body does die and returns to dust from whence it came, however, we do not die (and that include every single person in the whole world, be he/she Believer or unbeliever), for we can see from Luke 16 that Abraham, Lazarus, and the one asking for a drop of water on his tongue were alive.

Jesus is alive right now at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
No one has ever been able to prove that Jesus did not resurrect, and I mean, ever, and it has not been for lack of trying.

I prefer to believe the Bible than the conjecture of unbelieving men.

I believe that Jesus is at the right hand of God, after having resurrected, appeared to many, and ascended. What was your reason for saying that Jesus is interceding for us?

 

[Jacob]

As per John 11:26, those who believe in Christ shall never die, meaning that this is a promise to be fulfilled in the resurrection. It isn't an immunity to the death from this life, but the promise of immortality in the future. These are raised from the dead and made immortal.

As for unbelievers? Wicked? Unjust? They are raised from the dead and stand before God. There are only two outcomes of that judgment: passing into life, or destroyed unto death. I cannot tell you how any specific person will be judged, but I do see how Jesus says he will separate sheep from goats, how he does not reject the broken and contrite heart, how God does not reject sincere repentance.

Where does judgment enter for the believer? We are given indication by means of parable. They who have been faithful with little are given responsibility over greater. Does Christ give the person who buried their talent rule over ten cities?

I believe that the answer to your question is no. I believe that I have eternal life, but I do not know what it means to say so. Did my eternal life begin when I became a believer? Born again. The Spirit of God dwells in me. Unless I fail the test. I don't know that I have that right.

 

[Derf]

I think that "the dead in Christ" is inclusive and self-defined. That would be all the dead (in Christ) when He returns.



It would seem very strange if "the last trump" was followed by other trumpets... but that is what the "pre-tribulation rapture" position must require.



[/COLOR]Agreed.



I think so.

Malachi 3:16-17 KJV
(16) Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
(17) And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

I think your Malachi reference helps with the "in Christ" part of "dead in Christ". These seem to be obvious servants of God.

Good post!

 

[Rosenritter]

I believe that the answer to your question is no. I believe that I have eternal life, but I do not know what it means to say so. Did my eternal life begin when I became a believer? Born again. The Spirit of God dwells in me. Unless I fail the test. I don't know that I have that right.

We have eternal life in Jesus. and we put on that eternal life in the resurrection when Christ returns. Until then we are flesh and blood (and still subject to death, for how can we die if we were already immortal) but we have the promise of eternal life in Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 KJV
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Rosenritter]

I think your Malachi reference helps with the "in Christ" part of "dead in Christ". These seem to be obvious servants of God.

Good post!

Just pointing out that (at least according to John) Moses was in Christ as well.

Hebrews 11:24-26 KJV
(24) By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
(25) Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
(26) Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

 

[Jacob]

We have eternal life in Jesus. and we put on that eternal life in the resurrection when Christ returns. Until then we are flesh and blood (and still subject to death, for how can we die if we were already immortal) but we have the promise of eternal life in Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 KJV
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

See 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.