glorydaz
Well-known member
Faith in God is based on His word, and you have no faith in His word, so your "faith" is based on your own understanding. Which is why you are still lost and seeking....
Scripture. What is considered Scripture?
- Thread starter Jacob
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Faith in God is based on His word, and you have no faith in His word, so your "faith" is based on your own understanding. Which is why you are still lost and seeking....
Here is the passage from Matthew:
And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax collectors and sinners came and were sitting with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 12 But when he heard this, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 Go and learn what this means, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners." 14 Then the disciples of John came to him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but your disciples do not fast?" 15 And Jesus said to them, "The wedding guests cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast. 16 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old cloak, for the patch pulls away from the cloak, and a worse tear is made. 17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; otherwise, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved.” While he was saying these things to them, suddenly a leader of the synagogue came in and knelt before him, saying, ‘My daughter has just died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.’ And Jesus got up and followed him, with his disciples… When Jesus came to the leader’s house and saw the flute-players and the crowd making a commotion, he said, ‘Go away; for the girl is not dead but sleeping.’ And they laughed at him. But when the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl got up. [Matthew 9:13-19, 23-25 (NRSV)]
Jesus wasn’t dealing with the throng in Matthew’s version, as you wrote.
In Matthew’s version, Jesus was still teaching and not already on his way to the house of Jairus when the Word came that the girl had died.
In Matthew’s version, the initial conversation between Jesus and Jairus described the girl as dead.
So your version contradicts Matthew.
You are not obligated to me to see it. You may consider that you have an obligation to truth.
No, if I viewed incompleteness as error I would be wrong.
Incompleteness is not what I pointed out.
I pointed out contradictions, mutually exclusive versions of the facts.
Jesus either left to heal the sick girl and it was learned on the journey that the girl had died OR Jesus left after hearing the girl was already dead. It can’t be both ways.
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Yes, you have declared no reconciliation of the error.Nope, I have declared no such things: but you read my words just like you read the scripture, and the servant is not greater than his Master. If therefore you do what you do to the Word; no doubt you will do the same and probably worse to my measly little words.
Nope, but rather the perversion and corruption in your mind has declared that about what I believe; and your ego-god has lied to you because pretty much everything I have said to this point is based in the scripture which your ego-god also tells you is erroneous. I suppose that we could go back and forth like this all day long but it really is not worth the time.
Lon
Well-known member
Read the text Lon.
It says "A valid answer..." it does not say "the only valid answer..."
He did not present a false dilemma.
Zenn
:doh: He has gotten a number of 'invalid' answers others believe valid :noway:
He's your friend. Of course you want to stand up for him. Very noble :up: Nice try
Lon
Well-known member
Re-read YOUR sentence again, slowly. I don't know if you realize it, but you state problems that already assume a truth.
Someone that believes in inerrancy DOESN'T explain errors. There are none.
Spoiler
Yes it is. ▲Daqq ▲ just said the same thing. You do play and think by your own rules.
Ah,
"Fine! Don't play then! I'll just kick this ball into YOUR goal 10 times and win the game then take my ball and go home!"
:think: Fine, your rules, you win if only in your own mind.
Daqq ▲just▲said that too
and yet the errors are clearly there in the text.
You simply tell people not to look!
Re-read your position again: AVERT YOUR EYES! PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE ERRORS BEHIND THE CURTAIN! READING THE BIBLE HONESTLY IS ABOVE YOUR PAY GRADE!
This is why you will not address the errors in the story of Jairus. You can’t engage without admitting the truth: the text has errors you can’t reconcile.
:doh: He has gotten a number of 'invalid' answers others believe valid :noway:
He's your friend. Of course you want to stand up for him. Very noble :up: Nice try
I am sure Zenn’s dedication to the truth exceeds his interest in friends.
On the other hand, those who support the doctrine of inerrancy and will not discuss the obvious errors value their man-made tradition above truth.
Lon
Well-known member
It doesn't matter what "I" tell people. Not your business EITHER (so neither one is your business, you just INSIST on making both your business)
lain: What 'you' see clearly in the text? Not 'my' business, not when I can't get you to entertain naught but what you are ironclad over. It is a discussion over before it began, clear back from the first pages of the thread. It just took 152 recesses to figure out you don't play according to any rules but your own. Okay, play. You don't need me when you won't play by other's rules.
As I said, I'm trying to say it a bit nicer: "In my studied opinion, yours doesn't seem to be as studied." I can say it a couple of other ways: "We, of course, disagree and I can ONLY depend on my own prowess and walk with God. Sorry about that." Please pick one that is nicer to you and thank you. As far as the curtain? Its a bit about the Wizard of Oz's bells and whistles. The problem? If we take it to your accusation, it is 'seeing' something but 'error' is always always, always, going to be assumed, never never, never but an assumption, an accusation. George tried hard to tell you, and nicer than me, that there are rules, already in place. Those 'rules' over interpretation guide us AND keep us ALL honest. If you do not play by them, you are just playing your own game and trying to use your own ball (this one is actually Jacob's).
:nono:
George and Daqq said about everything I'd have said to you. Neither are playing by your rules, but neither of them are making these rules up. They are near exact if not exact to the ones I play by. Different rules? Different game, entirely.
Don't shoot down his friendship so quickly, he's come to your defense a few times and clearly over his care (and perhaps agreement as well) for you.
Er, accusation with NO foundation. You simply believe it because you 'want' to believe it. As I said, it comes from 'your' rule book.
Yes it is. You do play and think by your own rules.
As long as you are making them up as you go, or getting them from a different country with different rules, it'll never play the same here. It is simply a taunt from the French fort in my general direction. :think:
Zenn
New member
So you're claiming direct revelation from Jesus just like Paul did.
I can live with that.
But there are things in scripture that you don't know, Not having first experienced them yourself.
And I'm not sure you realize that you've just admitted that experience comes first and then you could understand what was written, and could not understand what was written beforehand. Are you sure you wish to place experience before scripture?
Your imputed abuse is in your head. I have had discourse with hundreds if not thousands of Christians, and I can truthfully say that your position and ... uh... presentation is rather unique, though considerably incomprehensible. Having been an editor, albeit for a brief period of time, I would not want to touch any manuscript you might submit. My apologies if you've become offended over the quip 'daqq-enese', but unless you really want to remain an audience of one unto yourself, you have got to drop the pretense of being something 'special' because you're the only one who understands your 'special' vocabulary (and to hell with everybody else). It is a poor author who blames his readers for not understanding what he writes.
Yes, much of what you have said is scattered.
And here is a good example. Your reference to Lev 16:14 → Luk 11:20 is quite a stretch. You have compared the finger of a priest applying ritual blood to the finger of God, when Jesus was speaking of the power of the Holy Spirit to actually cast out demons. (You've never have actually met a real demon, have you?) One might better compare the finger of God with the finger of God Exo 31:18 → Luk 11:20.
That said, your comparison of Lev 16:17 → Rev 15:8 is equally obtuse, in that one speaks of blood sacrifices, and the other speaks of smoke that comes from the glory of God. These are not even addressing the same topic, daqq. So yes, I question your interpretation abilities.
I have had numerous conversations with Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and others where these esoteric comparisons of interpretation were rather incomprehensible. So... if your identity is intrinsically intertwined with your 'special' revelation, then I understand the anxiety that shows in your posts. But you are quick to take offense, and really shouldn't be involved in these kinds of discussions. While you may think you have "walked in the way" long enough to understand your unique perspective, you have not "walked in the way" long enough to present them with any measure of clarity. If you yourself needed direct revelation (to understand whatever the heck it is you're talking about), then don't be upset if others do too.
Zenn
PS: And contrary to your sputtering, I did notice you were trying to defend Matthew by saying he was only quoting Zechariah. But, again, you didn't sufficiently present your case, and Matthew wasn't 'just' quoting Zechariah. He presented a narrative of action and linked this back to a prophetic utterance.
Again, you misread what I said. I did not say that experience comes before the scripture or even that experience comes before understanding the scripture: I only spoke of certain things, things we have discussed here which you have no clue about and do not understand and therefore essentially call God a liar because you do not understand His Word. Moreover I was a believer for nearly thirty years before I even began to understand things the way I do now. I may respond to the rest later, if I can, or maybe not, (it isn't worth arguing about spiritual things with someone who does not even believe at least all of the "canonical" scripture).
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, they aren't in the text...they're in your own mind.
Not true. He's telling you to look deeper....that you just skim the top and get all flummoxed.
Clearly, you are falsely accusing Lon of what he has not done.
False Accuser at work. :nono:
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glorydaz
Well-known member
:thumb:
Lon
Well-known member
Worse? I was reported for nothing I actually did NOR had in mind :noway: On top of that? I don't believe that word is a cuss word :noway:
The real spinner is that word didn't enter my mind BUT like Cobra here,
It is a blatant attack on 'me.' Why? Makes you wonder. Neither have the 'gift of discernment' and 'accusation' or 'rumor' are 'good enough.' Sad little charismatics believing whatever little lie they make up in their noggins, all in the name of 'gifted in Christ.'
Kind of makes one wish he listened to Ask Mr. Religion way back on page 8 :doh: @Ask Mr. Religion You were right! Why O' Why didn't I listen!!??I'VE BEEN REPORTED FOR MENTIONING PASSING GAS!!! Which I didn't even do!!! :doh: Good news? I'm beginning to empathize a bit with Trump. :noway: I CAN'T make this stuff up!
If he understood the Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts he would better understand Paul too, (and "daqq-enese" hopefully also would not be such a problem for him, lol). However it has been made perfectly clear by the one passage I quoted, concerning honoring your father and mother, that he himself, by his own erroneous interpretations, (and lack of knowledge of the scripture), forces contradictions in the scripture and makes the Messiah and Savior out to be a hypocrite in his doctrine. And after having been shown this fact he still does not care because he is his own king and ruler in the machinations of his vain imagination. It is truly about submission to the Word and he apparently does not practice any such thing: what or who therefore does he submit to? Whoever or whatever it is he actually submits to has no pure testimony that has been tried seven times, like what is written, and he therefore can make up whatever he wants as he goes. As Lon also just said, they make up their own rules, but how they think this fact is supposed to sway anyone here is beyond me. "Your Bible has errors: here, let me show you, all you have to do is read it the same way I do!" :chuckle:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Worse? I was reported for nothing I actually did NOR had in mind :noway: On top of that? I don't believe that word is a cuss word :noway:
The real spinner is that word didn't enter my mind BUT like Cobra here,
It is a blatant attack on 'me.' Why? Makes you wonder. Neither have the 'gift of discernment' and 'accusation' or 'rumor' are 'good enough.' Sad little charismatics believing whatever little lie they make up in their noggins, all in the name of 'gifted in Christ.'
I'VE BEEN REPORTED FOR MENTIONING PASSING GAS!!! Which I didn't even do!!! :doh: Good news? I'm beginning to empathize a bit with Trump. :noway: I CAN'T make this stuff up!
I just saw that and googled until I finally figured out what he must be talking about. How ignorant can a person be to make it a habit in life to read INTO what another person says. That happened to me back in the day when Nang accused me of calling her "vagina" when I changed her name to Nagina from that Rudyard Kipling story, Rikki Tikki Tavi. She was the female cobra, as I'm sure you know, Lon. But Nang insisted and went on an on for days on end that I had been calling her a "crude" name. The thought had never crossed my mind ....nor would it ever.
I've found that some people look for personal insults, and if there are none, they will manufacture them. Their ego is just that fragile. Don't give it another thought.
glorydaz
Well-known member
If he understood the Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts he would better understand Paul too, (and "daqq-enese" hopefully also would not be such a problem for him, lol). However it has been made perfectly clear by the one passage I quoted, concerning honoring your father and mother, that he himself, by his own erroneous interpretations, (and lack of knowledge of the scripture), forces contradictions in the scripture and makes the Messiah and Savior out to be a hypocrite in his doctrine. And after having been shown this fact he still does not care because he is his own king and ruler in the machinations of his vain imagination. It is truly about submission to the Word and he apparently does not practice any such thing: what or who therefore does he submit to? Whoever or whatever it is he actually submits to has no pure testimony that has been tried seven times, like what is written, and he therefore can make up whatever he wants as he goes. As Lon also just said, they make up their own rules, but how they think this fact is supposed to sway anyone here is beyond me. "Your Bible has errors: here, let me show you, all you have to do is read it the same way I do!" :chuckle:
Well said. I couldn't agree more.
Lon
Well-known member
:nono: That's why I STILL wonder about your grades. STILL.
:nono: It DOES reveal something about our public school system though :think:
Well, Georgia...it was likely your accent then... Not that I'm trying to knock down your school years or really even your grades. Rather, I was trying to tell you in your theology, I don't believe you measure up but AGAIN, I've been trying to be gentle. Don't know if you saw, but I asked my wife 'If I said "You are dense" to someone that IS dense, would they get it?' The point being, how do you say something nice to someone that doesn't get it no matter which way you say it? See, you still play by your own rules.
No, you play by your own rules. I've known a couple of very blonde blondes who have gotten all A's in school too.
Oh, I knew that was at least the excuse, it is a debate tactic. Imho, it is a worthless debate tactic. It also keeps record of wrongs for that express purpose.
AND ▲this▲ kind of quick and dirty makes it hard to take your grades very seriously. One has to wonder what they teach in Georgia.
On top of that, you are Charismatic. Now I'm not implying all of them are simpletons. I'm implying that you run off of emotion, it seems to me, more than your brains.
Oh, wait, that's an 'attack' on you, isn't it. See, when someone is wrong, it is either because they have been taught incorrectly, have something in themselves that affects clear thinking when they were taught correctly. It 'could' even be, because they were given A's when they didn't actually 'earn' them. In smaller towns, its a political process. Someone HAS to get A's or the school loses funding.
I can tell you are from huntin' country. It all fits my prejudice. Try to help me break that by saying some things that are gracious, intelligent, well-thought, and a bit accommodating. I've seen Southern hospitality and know what it looks like, even among a few that aren't as bright as you.
:doh: See? This dazzle me, does not.
What did you do? Shame your teachers into giving you an A??? Quick question: In your 'educational' experience, did you take debate???
It'd have taught you a few things you avoid. Let me guess, "A" in this class too???
Worse? I was reported for nothing I actually did NOR had in mind :noway: On top of that? I don't believe that word is a cuss word :noway:
The real spinner is that word didn't enter my mind BUT like Cobra here,
It is a blatant attack on 'me.' Why? Makes you wonder. Neither have the 'gift of discernment' and 'accusation' or 'rumor' are 'good enough.' Sad little charismatics believing whatever little lie they make up in their noggins, all in the name of 'gifted in Christ.'
I'VE BEEN REPORTED FOR MENTIONING PASSING GAS!!! Which I didn't even do!!! :doh: Good news? I'm beginning to empathize a bit with Trump. :noway: I CAN'T make this stuff up!
I don’t know who reported you. It certainly wasn’t me.
I am certain avoiding openly and honestly discussing the scriptures is worse than any discussion of natural occurrences.
You are never going to get any traction pretending I did poorly in school, as I graduated with honors from the fourth ranked engineering school in the United States. Then I had a successful business career. So you certainly failed in these attempts.
I am not sure why you call me a charismatic. I recognize those gifts haven’t passed away. I don’t have any of the gifts typically classified as charismatic.
But I suppose these are all distraction techniques, since you cannot take a position on the errors in the text other than “don’t look at them. End of story.” That is a very bad combination of naive, arrogant, and irresponsible. It doesn’t solve problems.