Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

[2003cobra]

If there's one thing we've learned from this thread.....no one can give a correct answer to any of the texts this Sonnet has presented. He refuses to hear anything but his own doubting, unbelieving mind, and he is out to besmirch God's Holy enduring Word. They've been trying to do this very thing from the beginning. But, the Bible just keeps on leading men to the Lord...just as He intended it would.

You won’t present an answer.

So you have no correct answer because you have no answer at all.

Specifically:
1) Did Jairus initially ask Jesus to heal a sick girl or to raise a dead girl?
2) Did Jairus learn his daughter was dead before Jesus started to his house or afterwards?

 

[iouae]

The Gospel of the Circumcision was for the Jews, who looked for a King to sit on David's Throne here on earth. But they crucified Him when He came.

Paul's Gospel was the Gospel of Salvation through which the Gentiles (and anyone) could be saved unto eternal life.

Paul was sent to preach the Gospel of Grace....that is the ONE Gospel that saves.

Perhaps you should read the entire chapter of Galatians. :think:

OK great, now we are getting at least an attempt at an answer and I give you 4/10 for that, just to not hurt your feelings, and because everyone is a winner.

No, having read Galatians, the "other gospel" was that one has to be circumcised if one wanted to be a Christian.

See Gal 5:1-3 Gal 6:12-16

But at least your answer had substance and was not a stonewall.

 

[glorydaz]

I said that God could have made us spirit bodies without the need for Christ to die, as God did with the angels.

Glorydaz insisted otherwise.

And to date she still cannot or will not explain. Either way, its the same. She has no answer, so that leaves her with one option - stonewall.

Likewise, she still cannot or will not tell us what the gospel in Gal 1:9 is. Either way, its the same. She has no answer, so that leaves her with one option - stonewall.

I answered both, but you didn't like my answer. Why am I not surprised?



The fact that you accuse God of sending His Son to die on the Cross when He didn't have to is blasphemy. Clearly, you don't believe that God is Righteous. That's on you, not me.

Had God wanted more spirit beings (like angels), they would still be merely angels. Is there some reason you don't understand that man, alone, was created in God's image? That man, alone, is a relational being? Perhaps you should study up on this "minor detail" before you go accusing me of not responding to your stupid "hypothesis". God did not ever intend for man to have the nature of angels and all that entails. They weren't created with bodies at all. They are merely spirit beings from start to end.

 

[glorydaz]

OK great, now we are getting at least an attempt at an answer and I give you 4/10 for that, just to not hurt your feelings, and because everyone is a winner.

No, having read Galatians, the "other gospel" was that one has to be circumcised if one wanted to be a Christian.

See Gal 5:1-3 Gal 6:12-16

But at least your answer had substance and was not a stonewall.

You're wrong. I'm glad you made your error so clear.

If what you claim is true, then being circumcised would be the good news for the Jews. It wasn't.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.​

This Gospel of the Kingdom was no longer a valid Gospel because the Jews had crucified the Lord of Glory when He came. Thus, "Repent and be baptised" was no longer valid, either, under Paul's Gospel of Grace.

 

[glorydaz]

You won’t present an answer.

So you have no correct answer because you have no answer at all.

Specifically:
1) Did Jairus initially ask Jesus to heal a sick girl or to raise a dead girl?
2) Did Jairus learn his daughter was dead before Jesus started to his house or afterwards?

Did Jesus die for the sins of all men or not?

 

[iouae]

I answered both, but you didn't like my answer. Why am I not surprised?



The fact that you accuse God of sending His Son to die on the Cross when He didn't have to is blasphemy. Clearly, you don't believe that God is Righteous. That's on you, not me.

Had God wanted more spirit beings (like angels), they would still be merely angels. Is there some reason you don't understand that man, alone, was created in God's image? That man, alone, is a relational being? Perhaps you should study up on this "minor detail" before you go accusing me of not responding to your stupid "hypothesis". God did not ever intend for man to have the nature of angels and all that entails. They weren't created with bodies at all. They are merely spirit beings from start to end.

Well great again. Two adults having an intelligent conversation.

On your last point, you are wrong in saying angels do not have a body, because they do.

Every time we are shown spirit beings/angels in heaven, they have bodies.

Then you wrote

The fact that you accuse God of sending His Son to die on the Cross when He didn't have to is blasphemy. Clearly, you don't believe that God is Righteous. That's on you, not me.

"Blasphemy" seems to be a favoured word around here. Almost every time it is used it makes the user a "LIAR".

If Christ had come to earth, preached for 3.5 years and risen into heaven from the Mt. of Olives as he did finally, I would have worshipped Christ and God, and become a Christian to get eternal life.

So you are utterly wrong.

But God has "good" ways. The way I described without Christ dying would have been "good".
But having Christ die was a "better" way. We see how invested God is in this project. When folks like Clete ask me if God could just be fooling us, Christ's sacrifice is too big a price to pay for God to be having a practical joke on us. And we appreciate Christ all the more, and feel this makes Him MORE worthy of our worship.

And Christ dying means that He is not asking us to do anything that He has not done, including give our lives for Him.

So God has "good" ways and "better" ways. The better ways often fall into the "severity" of God.

Rom 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:

But stop calling everyone with a different point of view to yours a "blasphemer". It's so childish.

 

[iouae]

You're wrong. I'm glad you made your error so clear.

If what you claim is true, then being circumcised would be the good news for the Jews. It wasn't.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.​

This Gospel of the Kingdom was no longer a valid Gospel because the Jews had crucified the Lord of Glory when He came. Thus, "Repent and be baptised" was no longer valid, either, under Paul's Gospel of Grace.

No, I am glad you made your error so clear. Or maybe you misread me.

The whole reason Paul was going "ape" in Gal 1:9 was because after he left Galatia, some Jewish Pharisee Christian converts came from Jerusalem and were insisting that the Gentile converts to Christianity had to be circumcised.

THAT is the reason Paul wrote Galatians. This is summarised in Gal 5:1-3 and Gal 6:12-16. Period.

 

[2003cobra]

Did Jesus die for the sins of all men or not?

You answer first.

 

[glorydaz]

You answer first.

Scared, aren't you?

 

[iouae]

.

So Glorydaz if somebody comes along and says that Christians have to be circumcised, that is another gospel.

That is the time to go ape.

 

[Lon]

Paul was saying that a false gospel is not a gospel because "gospel" means "good news" and what the false "gospel" was bringing was not good news.

I agree.

 

[Lon]

Once again you are wrong. I listed “a” valid answer, not the only valid answer.

Again, you are evading the question.

:chuckle: Says the guy who thinks God can make a rock He cannot pick up (by analogy).

Again, "you" don't get to make up the rules.

More evasion.

More 'my way!'

You will not answer a simple question about what the Bible says. Why?

"Because" the answer to "can God pick up a rock He cannot pick up is" :nono: "This is not an intelligent logical question."
(that's nicer than 'you are thick!' I'm working on it)

Is it because you shut your eyes to errors in the text

:nono: TRY not to answer for me or anybody else. Answering for me does NOT encourage me to post in this thread.
Remember me saying 'game over?' There is a reason for that. I have no desire to dialogue when you are trying to make all the rules and nobody gets to say anything. :nono:

and mislead others by telling them that they aren’t supposed to look closely enough at the Bible to see errors?

Your hang up and false accusation. I'm misleading nobody. It is the truth. Deuteronomy 6 is pretty clear.

Why not just adopt the Roman Catholic approach ubiquitous in the time of Martin Luther: only seminary graduates should read the Bible and others should just fall in line with what the educated say?

Kind of what you are doing here. Would you RATHER follow someone who really tried or someone who didn't bother? IOW, would you rather follow a Berean or a Corinthian in the first century?

Again I ask:

Specifically:
1) Did Jairus initially ask Jesus to heal a sick girl or to raise a dead girl?
2) Did Jairus learn his daughter was dead before Jesus started to his house or afterwards?

:nono: I'm not getting into you 'my ball, my rules' game. You don't 'get' to make the rules. All those playing get to decide or leave you all by yourself and go play someplace else.

 

[glorydaz]

No, I am glad you made your error so clear. Or maybe you misread me.

The whole reason Paul was going "ape" in Gal 1:9 was because after he left Galatia, some Jewish Pharisee Christian converts came from Jerusalem and were insisting that the Gentile converts to Christianity had to be circumcised.

THAT is the reason Paul wrote Galatians. This is summarised in Gal 5:1-3 and Gal 6:12-16. Period.

No, that is not the reason Paul wrote Galatians. That was merely a side issue. Not the reason for writing Galatians and having nothing to do with the Gospel Paul preached.

Paul makes it clear that his Gospel was not that preached by the Apostles or our Lord when He walked the earth. It was given Him by revelation of the Risen and Ascended Lord.

Gal. 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.​

Paul wrote Galatians to explain the difference between the Law and Grace, as he did all his letters.

Gal. 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.​

And this is the purpose of Galatians....that the law was merely a schoolmaster to lead us to faith in Christ. Justification by faith...not by works (circumcision or any other kind of work or self effort).

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

Therefore, any who preach a false gospel, that has man earning his salvation by his own obedience or effort (of any kind), is to be accursed. Not only circumcision, or special days, or obedience to commandments, or sacrificing time or money, or unclean foods, or rites and rituals....none of it will save. The freewoman vs. the bondwoman....

 

[glorydaz]

So Glorydaz if somebody comes along and says that Christians have to be circumcised, that is another gospel.

That is the time to go ape.

You sound like God's UNtruth. She claims when Paul writes "not of yourselves", and "not of works", he is only talking about circumcision and various washings etc. That way, she is freed to preach her false gospel of obedience to earn her salvation and to stay saved.

But that's a lie, and needs to be denounced. Paul is saying those who preach any other Gospel than his is to be ACCURSED. I take that seriously, as all believers should.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.​

 

[Zenn]

God forbid, as Paul would say, I'm telling you the law he (HE WHO?) preached when He (HE WHO?) walked among us does not give life.

He who? Jesus? The words Jesus preached when He walked among us does not give life? gldz I am astonished that so many of your doctrinal assertions are just in blatant opposition what Jesus actually said. The very words of Christ contradict you.

Jesus words give life:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(Joh 5:24 KJV)

Jesus words give life:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
(Joh 6:63 KJV)

The scriptures I've been quoting are the words of Jesus who himself said they gave life. And furthermore commanded you to do these things.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Joh 14:15 KJV)

Jesus teachings are not law, Moses gave the law. Jesus teachings are spirit and truth which bring life.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​

What He did was preach what leads to LIFE, and that IS the purpose of the Law, and it's WHY He preached it. Do you think you can keep it? If so, you have not yet understood the purpose of what the Lord was saying in those verses you quote.

Is there guile in Jesus? To mislead those who hear his words? For he said If ye love me, keep my commandments. Of course we can keep his commandments, and we do so with the help of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise Jesus was a very sick puppy to command people to do things he knew they couldn't.

Rather than look to what you must do to have life with your own obedience or commandment keeping, you need to look to what the Risen and Ascended Lord revealed to Paul.

And once again you have taken the teachings of Jesus and discarded them into the trash making Paul your new Messiah. Are you a dispensationalist like those who say that Jesus revealed to Paul that nothing Jesus spoke on earth had worth or value?

Do you think that the sermon on the mount was God playing mind games?

I have heard of people taking the very words of the Son of God, slapping the label of LAW upon them and then flushing them down the same toilet along with the LAW of Moses to preach a Paul is Messiah gospel. But you may be the first to do such so blatantly and so radically adopting this doctrine stating that Jesus words were worthless, being some kind of Jesaic Law.

Zenn




void

 

[Zenn]

So you say that the Master abolished the commandment to honor your father and mother,

daqq, you're losing it buddy. I didn't say anything, I just quoted the scriptures where Jesus clarified who that "mother" and "father" were in the Dead Testament.

Go argue with Jesus, although it's rather obvious from your posts that as gldz follows Paul as her Messiah, you still follow Moses as Messiah.

You thus make your own contradictions in not only the scripture but the very words of the Master whom you claim to follow and believe in. How can you say you "believe" in him when you do not care to uphold his Testimony and do not care when you force contradictions in his Testimony for your own benefit to satisfy your privately held doctrines?

I don't have any privaetly held doctrines, daqq. Step back take a breather and if you can, recognize that you just came unglued by ONLY reading scripture verses.

I don't see a contradiction in his Testimony regarding mother and father, any more than when Paul says "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" In this case, Israel is defined after the heart, not the bloodline, and this was obviously Jesus intent when redefining who the mother and father is that should be honored - the heart of the spirit in love supersedes bloodline. And I've given you two testimonies here.

It's not really hard.

Yes, according to *you* the scripture has errors,

Cobra likes the word error. And to be accurate.... according to *me* different portions of scripture describe accounts that contradict one another.

When one account has Jarius saying to Jesus that his daughter just died, while another account has Jarius saying to Jesus that his daughter is ill and near death. This is an outright contradiction between the two stories. ANY mentally sane person would understand this.

I think the problem here is that you think I think that these contradictions destroy the validity of the testimony. I don't. Why do you think these contradictions would? (destroy the validity of the testimony)?

If you are not careful the only thing going POOF might be you, (I would not be calling down anymore lightning if I were you, but that's just me, lol).

Yep. That's you. No gifts at all. There can't be gifts because I don't like them.

Zenn

 

[Zenn]

You don't get to stipulate what a valid answer is. THIS ONE 'assumes' there is no other option.

Read the text Lon.

It says "A valid answer..." it does not say "the only valid answer..."

He did not present a false dilemma.

Zenn

 

[iouae]

And this is the purpose of Galatians....that the law was merely a schoolmaster to lead us to faith in Christ. Justification by faith...not by works (circumcision or any other kind of work or self effort).

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Knowing that a NAIL is not SCREWED INTO WOOD by the works of A SCREWDRIVER, but by the USE of A HAMMER, even we have believed in THE CORRECT INSTRUMENT, that we might NAIL IN A NAIL BY A HAMMER, and not by the works of the SCREWDRIVER: for by the works of the SCREWDRIVER shall no NAIL BE NAILED IN.

You just hate screwdrivers

 

[Zenn]

This Gospel of the Kingdom was no longer a valid Gospel because the Jews had crucified the Lord of Glory when He came. Thus, "Repent and be baptised" was no longer valid, either, under Paul's Gospel of Grace.

And BANG there it is in all the glory of black and white.

The gospel Jesus taught is no longer valid because Jesus messed up and got himself killed.

Thus, "Repent and be baptised" was no longer valid

And yet right after the disciples were filled with the Holy Ghost, God by the Holy Spirit has Peter lie to everybody when preaching truths gldz says are no longer valid:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(Act 2:38-41 KJV)

3,000 poor deluded souls who embraced an invalid gospel (according to gldz) and so must be heading off to hell because they listened to the Holy Spirit.

gldz, with these declarations you've recently made, it is not hard to see that you have rejected ALL of Jesus teachings and have supplanted them with your new god Paul.

Zenn

PS: But I am well pleased that you are clearly presenting your beliefs.

 

[glorydaz]

He who? Jesus? The words Jesus preached when He walked among us does not give life? gldz I am astonished that so many of your doctrinal assertions are just in blatant opposition what Jesus actually said. The very words of Christ contradict you.

No, they don't.

Jesus words give life:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(Joh 5:24 KJV)

Where do you see obey the commandments there? :chew:

Jesus words give life:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
(Joh 6:63 KJV)

The words He had just spoken. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life."

Again, where are the commandments? Believing is what brings life.

The scriptures I've been quoting are the words of Jesus who himself said they gave life. And furthermore commanded you to do these things.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Joh 14:15 KJV)

He was speaking to the Apostles in chapters 14 and 15. John 15:27 They were to bear witness until the Comforter would come. All this before Christ went to the cross and rose from the dead, and before Christ was the end of the law for righteousness. Romans 10:4

Jesus Christ ended the law for righteousness for those who believe when He went to the cross....Paul didn't do that. Paul only reported it.

Jesus teachings are not law, Moses gave the law. Jesus teachings are spirit and truth which bring life.

Have you ever read Matt. 5....seen how Jesus magnified the law? Even to look at a woman with lust made you guilty of adultery. That was law and brought only death. Jesus most certainly taught the law. The purpose of the law was to bring men to faith in Christ. Of course He preached the law.

Is there guile in Jesus? To mislead those who hear his words? For he said If ye love me, keep my commandments. Of course we can keep his commandments, and we do so with the help of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise Jesus was a very sick puppy to command people to do things he knew they couldn't.

Oh, you mean that Holy Spirit who had not yet come when He walked among us?

And once again you have taken the teachings of Jesus and discarded them into the trash making Paul your new Messiah. Are you a dispensationalist like those who say that Jesus revealed to Paul that nothing Jesus spoke on earth had worth or value?

Wrong. What Jesus spoke on earth had great value. He told us to be PERFECT as the Father in Heaven is perfect. Most will see that they cannot be perfect, and what will they do then? Keep trying to be perfect or will they opt instead to turn to God for His mercy and GRACE? The Law has a purpose...to show men what sinners they are, and bring them to Christ.

Do you think that the sermon on the mount was God playing mind games?

No, I think it was God's way of getting us to admit our great need. Why do you think God asked Adam how he knew he was naked? Just to play mind games with Adam?

I have heard of people taking the very words of the Son of God, slapping the label of LAW upon them and then flushing them down the same toilet along with the LAW of Moses to preach a Paul is Messiah gospel. But you may be the first to do such so blatantly and so radically adopting this doctrine stating that Jesus words were worthless, being some kind of Jesaic Law.

Zenn

I did not say Jesus' words were worthless. Do you read the Bible in the same way you read the words of others....read into them that way?

I guess you don't think that the Risen Lord was much of anything, do you? Perhaps you doubt His death on the cross accomplished anything for us. We could just all try and keep those commandments, and Jesus need not have come at all. :AMR: