Saved by Grace or/and by Works

csuguy

Well-known member
What a mess.

What a helpful remark.

Tell me, which specific proposition(s) do you disagree with:

1. Jesus died for all
2. Not all are saved
3. We are judged by our deeds, eternal life being the reward for good works
4. There is no favoritism with God
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Is it a sin for the Sovereign leader to pardon some criminals but not all? Is that favoritism?
You seem to view yourself differently, regarding your sin, than God views you.
Your sins are as scarlet. Should God choose to be just, you will die in your sins and receive God's full wrath. Should God choose to place your sin upon Jesus as your propitiation, you will be pardoned and God's sacrifice will be the substitution that justly frees you from God's wrath.
Know this: You stand before the Creator and you are wholly at His mercy. Pray He extends you His grace. He is not obligated to do so.

God declares through his word that favoritism is a sin - and that there is no favoritism with God. Favoritism = showing partiality, especially in judgement.

To attempt to argue that it's ok for God to show favoritism - after he has declared it a sin and after declaring that there is no favoritism with him - just goes to show that your theology is fundamentally flawed. Your theology makes God out to be a sinner.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
What a helpful remark.

Tell me, which specific proposition(s) do you disagree with:


3. We are judged by our deeds, eternal life being the reward for good works

Titus 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 

Right Divider

Body part
What a helpful remark.

Tell me, which specific proposition(s) do you disagree with:

1. Jesus died for all
2. Not all are saved
3. We are judged by our deeds, eternal life being the reward for good works
4. There is no favoritism with God
That you cannot tell the different between the ministry of the twelve and the one.

You mash verses together like most of Churchianity. With no regard for context.

Eternal life is NOT a reward for good works. Eternal life is GIFT.... which is the opposite of something EARNED (i.e., a reward).

Rom 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You nor anyone else will ever EARN eternal life.
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

New member
God declares through his word that favoritism is a sin - and that there is no favoritism with God. Favoritism = showing partiality, especially in judgement.

To attempt to argue that it's ok for God to show favoritism - after he has declared it a sin and after declaring that there is no favoritism with him - just goes to show that your theology is fundamentally flawed. Your theology makes God out to be a sinner.
You never answered my first question. Why do you avoid it?

Is it a sin for the Sovereign leader to pardon some criminals but not all? Is that favoritism?

You seem to view yourself differently, regarding your sin, than God views you.

Your sins are as scarlet. Should God choose to be just, you will die in your sins and receive God's full wrath. Should God choose to place your sin upon Jesus as your propitiation, you will be pardoned and God's sacrifice will be the substitution that justly frees you from God's wrath.

Know this: You stand before the Creator and you are wholly at His mercy. Pray He extends you His grace. He is not obligated to do so.

I suggest you are clueless about God and have created an argument against the Sovereign Creator to label him and accuse him so as to avoid His right to choose.
Your claim of favoritism is faux whining against God. I call it bogus garbage.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
That you cannot tell the different between the ministry of the twelve and the one.

First off, nice way to not answer the question. This is my common experience with MADists on this website - you all run away behind ridiculous platitudes rather than confront the wealth of evidence that contradicts you. Hence you won't even answer which propositions I put forth you have a problem with.

Secondly, there is one gospel, one Lord Jesus Christ, and one God. Paul may have primarily focused upon the gentiles, but he also went to the Jews. Similarly the 12 primarily focused on the Jews, but also welcomed the gentiles.

Acts 10:34-48 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.


You mash verses together like most of Churchianity. With no regard for context.

Put your money where your mouth is and answer my questions, put forth your arguments and actually discuss the matter at hand. Stop hiding behind ridiculous platitudes. So far all you've done is avoid answering my questions.

Eternal life is NOT a reward for good works. Eternal life is GIFT.... which is the opposite of something EARNED (i.e., a reward).

Rom 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You nor anyone else will every EARN eternal life.

Funny, the scriptures state otherwise - even Paul says:

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.​
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Titus 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Here's your favorite, Paul:

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.​

And, as you know, I can pull similar verses abundantly from the NT. Whether the Gospels or Epistles, they are consistent in testifying that our deeds are what we are judged by.

Secondly, since you only quoted #3 - can I assume that you are OK with the other 3? If so, on what basis are some saved while others are damned - keeping in mind that Jesus died for all, and that there is no favoritism with God?
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Which is what happens when someone tries to mix law and grace.

You realize that under the New Covenant the Law is written on our hearts and minds. By rejecting the Law you are rejecting the New Covenant.

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
You never answered my first question. Why do you avoid it?

Is it a sin for the Sovereign leader to pardon some criminals but not all? Is that favoritism?

I did answer it - I told you what favoritism is and that there is no favoritism with God. But I'll expand my answer. In of itself, showing mercy and pardoning do not constitute as favoritism - providing mercy is made available to all on a common basis that is commonly achievable. If, however, mercy is reserved for select individuals and is kept out of reach to others - then that is favoritism and a sin.

I suggest you are clueless about God and have created an argument against the Sovereign Creator to label him and accuse him so as to avoid His right to choose.
Your claim of favoritism is faux whining against God. I call it bogus garbage.

I haven't stated anything against God - for the scriptures declare that there is no favoritism with God. The one in error is you, who squirm to defend your false doctrine against the scriptures that so clearly contradict you and your sinful conception of God.
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

New member
I did answer it - I told you what favoritism is and that there is no favoritism with God. But I'll expand my answer. In of itself, showing mercy and pardoning is not in of itself favoritism - providing mercy is made available to all on a common basis that is commonly achievable. If, however, mercy is reserved for select individuals and is kept out of reach to others - then that is favoritism and a sin.



I haven't stated anything against God - for the scriptures declare that there is no favoritism with God. The one in error is you, who squirm to defend your false doctrine against the scriptures that so clearly contradict you and your sinful conception of God.
You are declaring that God must pardon all or pardon none. You thus make your self the judge over God and define to God what is and is not favoritism. If God does not abide by your declaration, it makes God a liar.
Question: Just how arrogant are you that you would talk back to God?
It seems you conveniently ignore Romans 9.
Romans 9:6-33
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessdid not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
 

csuguy

Well-known member
You are declaring that God must pardon all or pardon none.

I said that God must provide the same opportunity for pardon, on a basis that doesn't show partiality- which is much different from saying that all must be pardoned or none.

You thus make your self the judge over God and define to God what is and is not favoritism. If God does not abide by your declaration, it makes God a liar.

God's own word declares favoritism is a sin and declares there is no favoritism with God. This is basic stuff. God isn't on trial here - but your faulty theology.
 

MennoSota

New member
I said that God must provide the same opportunity for pardon, on a basis that doesn't show partiality- which is must different from saying that all must be pardoned or none.



God's own word declares favoritism is a sin and declares there is no favoritism with God. This is basic stuff. God isn't on trial here - but your faulty theology.
Your definition of favoritism is not God's definition. You are the problem, not God.
God must do what God wills to do. You must live with that and accept that.
Once again, you arrogantly declare that you are the judge of God.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Your definition of favoritism is not God's definition. You are the problem, not God.
God must do what God wills to do. You must live with that and accept that.
Once again, you arrogantly declare that you are the judge of God.

For the sake of argument, what is "God's definition" of favoritism? Feel free to lay out the scriptural definition. Back up your position instead of hiding behind platitudes.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Here's your favorite, Paul:

Romans 2:6-11 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.​

You should realize that Romans is a road that must be walked step by step.

Before the verses you cite, you will find these words.

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?​

Paul is clearly warning all men who think they can somehow escape the judgment of God, by claiming they do not sin, or are better than others. Since all men sin.... Some men seek for immortality, and some don't even try. He compares two groups of men in the verses below, and in next two verses also. Romans 2:9, Romans 2:10

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,​

But here is the conclusion of the matter. There are none righteous...no not one.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.​


And, as you know, I can pull similar verses abundantly from the NT. Whether the Gospels or Epistles, they are consistent in testifying that our deeds are what we are judged by.

You could, but not for condemnation, but as speaking of the Bema Seat where rewards and loss of rewards are passed out. Nothing there about our earning or being rewarded with salvation.

Secondly, since you only quoted #3 - can I assume that you are OK with the other 3? If so, on what basis are some saved while others are damned - keeping in mind that Jesus died for all, and that there is no favoritism with God?

Yes, I do agree with the other three, unless you mean something other than what you have written plainly there. Those are saved who hear the Gospel of Grace...the preaching of the Cross. God shows no "favoritism"...His Grace is offered to all men. It is man, himself, who chooses to reject God. Not the other way around.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I said that God must provide the same opportunity for pardon, on a basis that doesn't show partiality- which is much different from saying that all must be pardoned or none.

The preaching of the Cross.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.​

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You realize that under the New Covenant the Law is written on our hearts and minds. By rejecting the Law you are rejecting the New Covenant.

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

No, and why are you quoting the preaching of the law to those who are not under the schoolmaster?



The law has a purpose, but it is NOT to make men righteous, or to justify, or to give life.

It is simply to show men their sin and lead them to faith in Christ Jesus.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
You should realize that Romans is a road that must be walked step by step.

Before the verses you cite, you will find these words.

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?​

Paul is clearly warning all men who think they can somehow escape the judgment of God, by claiming they do not sin, or are better than others. Since all men sin.... Some men seek for immortality, and some don't even try. He compares two groups of men in the verses below, and in next two verses also. Romans 2:9, Romans 2:10

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,​

But here is the conclusion of the matter. There are none righteous...no not one.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.​

Paul has many ideas in this chapter - indeed one of the most powerful chapters in Romans. He starts off speaking of judging others (v1-4), to the Judgement (v5-16) - including how the gentiles' conscience becomes a law to them (v12-15), to being a Spiritual Jew (v17-19). You could break it up even finer.

I find ideas present in the so-called conclusion to be very powerful indeed - for they show that even though God gave the Law to the Jews, he still gave all men a conscience whereby we are held accountable.

Romans 2:14-15 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)​

You quoted this "conclusion" - yet you did not add an exegesis of your own. I completely agree with v13 and find it quite in line with the fact that we are to fulfill the Law:

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.​

Furthermore, even if this were the "conclusion" of his ideas in the chapter (which it's not), it would not in anyway detract from Romans 2:6-11. It is still the case that God's judges based upon our deeds and rewards us accordingly.

You could, but not for condemnation, but as speaking of the Bema Seat where rewards and loss of rewards are passed out. Nothing there about our earning or being rewarded with salvation.

Oh, I can think of a number passages that speak of rewards and condemnation. The scriptures are very consistent (including the OT) at declaring that if you do what is good and right, you will live. If you pursue evil then you will be condemned and die. And the passages which only explicitly emphasize the reward also clearly infer the opposite as well.


Deutoronomy 30 (read the entire chapter, but especially the last half).

The parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew 25:31-46)

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

1 Cor 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.


I could go on. Many of these speak of both reward and condemnation. Some only explicitly speak of the reward, but also very clearly imply the condemnation (for if you do not get life, what is waiting for you but death?) Some from Jesus, some from Paul, Some from James, etc. The scriptures a extremely consistent on this point.


Yes, I do agree with the other three, unless you mean something other than what you have written plainly there. Those are saved who hear the Gospel of Grace...the preaching of the Cross. God shows no "favoritism"...His Grace is offered to all men. It is man, himself, who chooses to reject God. Not the other way around.

That is good. However, we know that "choosing" goes beyond belief (if indeed belief even be counted as a decision as such). For, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." James 2:19.

So what, more specifically, would you say one must do to choose God and be saved?

Of course, Paul among others tells us: we are judged by our deeds. We must do what is good and right.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
No, and why are you quoting the preaching of the law to those who are not under the schoolmaster?



The law has a purpose, but it is NOT to make men righteous, or to justify, or to give life.

It is simply to show men their sin and lead them to faith in Christ Jesus.

Uh, yes - this is the promise of the New Covenant:


Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.


If you don't have the Law then you don't have the New Covenant.

As for righteousness, Paul tells us the condition of being declared righteous:


Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
The preaching of the Cross.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.​

Romans 10:14-15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!​

More platitudes, no content.
 
Top