Saved by Grace or/and by Works

Jerry Shugart

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First off, I've already provided scripture to the effect that there is only one gospel.

Paul preached two different gospels. One was according to what the OT prophets foretold:

"Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" (Rom.1:3).​

The other one was kept secret since the world began:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past"
(Ro.1:25).​

A gospel which was promised by the OT prophets cannot be the same gospel which was kept secret for long ages past.
 

Bright Raven

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Paul preached two different gospels. One was according to what the OT prophets foretold:

"Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" (Rom.1:3).​

The other one was kept secret since the world began:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past"
(Ro.1:25).​

A gospel which was promised by the OT prophets cannot be the same gospel which was kept secret for long ages past.

Paul preached one Gospel;

Galatians 1:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Paul Defends His Ministry
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul says that the Gospel(singular)that was preached by him was given him by revelation from Jesus Christ.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Paul preached two different gospels. One was according to what the OT prophets foretold:

"Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" (Rom.1:3).​

The other one was kept secret since the world began:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past"
(Ro.1:25).​

A gospel which was promised by the OT prophets cannot be the same gospel which was kept secret for long ages past.
That's not true. It was hidden, though symbolized in many forms and even His Death was described explicitly in great detail; even though it was hidden until He revealed it. There really is only ONE Gospel: Grace.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
No, you did not. You gave your highly biased view of some scripture.

Paul plainly declares there is one gospel in that passage. You say he was speaking to a particular group at the time? Of course he was - so what. Unless you can show he intended those words ONLY for those people, that the truth of those words was limited to them alone, then you are making an irrelevant observation.

And all of those things have differences that you completely ignore.

There is no difference. Like Paul talking of God's Law and Christ's Law - they are one in the same thing. If he considered them different then he would have expounded upon those differences. And if not him then someone else would have. There is zero evidence that he is speaking of different gospels - and all the evidence that there is only one gospel - that of Christ.

All of that is true... but it still does NOT make the gospel of the kingdom IDENTICAL to the gospel of the grace of God.

Show where Paul explicitly differentiates the two. Else you are just reading what you want into the text.

The restoration referred to in Acts 3:21 INCLUDES the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6).

So what if it mentions the future restoration of Israel in Acts 1:6?

Also, according to Paul we are part of Israel. It is through Israel that God has reconciled the world back to himself.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Paul preached two different gospels. One was according to what the OT prophets foretold:

"Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David" (Rom.1:3).​

The other one was kept secret since the world began:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past"
(Ro.1:25).​

A gospel which was promised by the OT prophets cannot be the same gospel which was kept secret for long ages past.

I think the others have done a good job pointing out your errors. There is only one gospel. Paul nowhere differentiates between a multitude of gospels - that is purely you reading what you want to into the text.

As for the mystery - just because there was prophecy concerning these things doesn't mean they were fully understood. Why do you think they crucified Christ?

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
 

JudgeRightly

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I think the others have done a good job pointing out your errors. There is only one gospel. Paul nowhere differentiates between a multitude of gospels - that is purely you reading what you want to into the text.

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:7-9&version=NKJV

You were saying?

As for the mystery - just because there was prophecy concerning these things doesn't mean they were fully understood. Why do you think they crucified Christ?

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

The mystery had never been spoken of before. That's why it was a mystery.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:7-9&version=NKJV

You were saying?

Here Paul is merely speaking of the primary focus of their respective ministries - not of distinct gospels. Peter went to and welcomed gentiles, and Paul went to and welcomed Jews.

Acts 10:34-38 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Acts 17:2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

So to say these are distinct gospels intended for Jews vs Gentiles respectively is foolish. Indeed, according to Paul - the gentiles are Jews, inwardly (Romans 2:28-29), and have been grafted onto Israel (Romans 11).

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

If there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ, if we are grafted onto Israel and thus receive her blessings, then why do you imagine that there would be any difference in the Gospel message? You focus on human leaders - but Paul himself said these are nothing.

1 Cor 1:10-13 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?


1 Cor 3:3-7 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? 5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

Following Paul or following Peter makes no difference - we are all one in Christ.


The mystery had never been spoken of before. That's why it was a mystery


Revelation 10:7
But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

 

Right Divider

Body part
Paul plainly declares there is one gospel in that passage. You say he was speaking to a particular group at the time? Of course he was - so what. Unless you can show he intended those words ONLY for those people, that the truth of those words was limited to them alone, then you are making an irrelevant observation.
Paul used the term "THE GOSPEL OF" many times. That you cannot understand that is not my problem.

There is no difference.
See what I mean?

Like Paul talking of God's Law and Christ's Law - they are one in the same thing. If he considered them different then he would have expounded upon those differences. And if not him then someone else would have. There is zero evidence that he is speaking of different gospels - and all the evidence that there is only one gospel - that of Christ.
There are many gospels, just like the Bible plainly says. That Christ is the center of them all is not the issue.

Show where Paul explicitly differentiates the two. Else you are just reading what you want into the text.
That you cannot understand "the gospel OF" is a problem that you need to fix.

So what if it mentions the future restoration of Israel in Acts 1:6?

Also, according to Paul we are part of Israel. It is through Israel that God has reconciled the world back to himself.
Hogwash. The body of Christ is a NEW creature. It is not "part of Israel". That is, once again, you reading your bias into the text.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Paul used the term "THE GOSPEL OF" many times. That you cannot understand that is not my problem.

And? If he says "Gospel of God" or "Gospel of the Son" do you imagine these are different? Foolish.


There are many gospels, just like the Bible plainly says. That Christ is the center of them all is not the issue.

There is no difference between people in Christ, no difference between men or women, no difference between Jew and Gentile. All are the same. Your idea that to different people Christ gave different gospels is, thus, ludicrous. All of the Gospels are of the good news of Christ, all are accepted and judged the same, all are held to the same standards.

No - you like to imagine that all responsibility is for others, while nothing is required of yourself. So anything you don't like you say only applies to THOSE people. But there is no difference between you and THOSE people in Christ.

That you cannot understand "the gospel OF" is a problem that you need to fix.

Show where he differentiates between the Gospel of the Son, the Gospel of God, the Gospel of Christ, and the Gospel of the Kingdom. These are all one in the same - never are they treated as something distinct. Hence no scripture is devoted to discussing the differences between them - because there aren't any.

Hogwash. The body of Christ is a NEW creature. It is not "part of Israel". That is, once again, you reading your bias into the text.

Not surprising that you'd reject Paul's teaching on the matter - you reject anything that doesn't suit your fancy.

Romans 2:25-29 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Romans 11:13-21 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Romans 15:8-13 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed 9 and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written: “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing the praises of your name.”[c] 10 Again, it says, “Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”[d] 11 And again, “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles; let all the peoples extol him.”[e] 12 And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.”[f] 13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.


Romans 15:27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.
 

Right Divider

Body part
And? If he says "Gospel of God" or "Gospel of the Son" do you imagine these are different? Foolish.
If they were identical in every way, then he would have used the exact same term.

There is no difference between people in Christ, no difference between men or women, no difference between Jew and Gentile. All are the same. Your idea that to different people Christ gave different gospels is, thus, ludicrous. All of the Gospels are of the good news of Christ, all are accepted and judged the same, all are held to the same standards.
In the body of Christ, indeed! Who would disagree?

But this was NOT always so. God choose Israel apart from the other nations. God separated THEM from other people.

This is one of the things that make the body of Christ DIFFERENT from Israel.

No - you like to imagine that all responsibility is for others, while nothing is required of yourself. So anything you don't like you say only applies to THOSE people. But there is no difference between you and THOSE people in Christ.
:singer:

Show where he differentiates between the Gospel of the Son, the Gospel of God, the Gospel of Christ, and the Gospel of the Kingdom. These are all one in the same - never are they treated as something distinct. Hence no scripture is devoted to discussing the differences between them - because there aren't any.
You don't even know what the gospel of the kingdom is because you've fallen for some myth of "Churchianity".

The gospel of the kingdom is explained throughout scripture. I wasn't something new when Christ preached it.

The book of Revelation shows that Israel is to be the head of the nations. The gentile nations will serve Israel and all will be blessed.

Isaiah 60 an Rev 21 are almost mirror images of one another.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
If they were identical in every way, then he would have used the exact same term.

Just because that's what you would like doesn't mean that's how it is or should be. Paul is very poetic in his use of language, and takes liberties with how he phrases things. For example, he similarly takes liberty with the term "law." To understand Paul properly you need to look past the immediate language and at the larger concepts he is presenting. You aren't the first to be confused by Paul's words.

2 Peter 3:15-17 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.​

In the body of Christ, indeed! Who would disagree?

But this was NOT always so. God choose Israel apart from the other nations. God separated THEM from other people.

This is one of the things that make the body of Christ DIFFERENT from Israel.

God separated Israel as his people, but people of any nation were always free to join if they would accept God's Law. No different than now - for under the New Covenant God's Law is written on our hearts and minds.

:singer:


You don't even know what the gospel of the kingdom is because you've fallen for some myth of "Churchianity".

The gospel of the kingdom is explained throughout scripture. I wasn't something new when Christ preached it.

The book of Revelation shows that Israel is to be the head of the nations. The gentile nations will serve Israel and all will be blessed.

Isaiah 60 an Rev 21 are almost mirror images of one another.

I've said it multiple times: if you think the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Gospel of Christ, the Gospel of the Son, the Gospel of God, etc. are distinct - then show where in scripture these are differentiated and to whom each applies. There are no such passages because there is no difference.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Just because that's what you would like doesn't mean that's how it is or should be. Paul is very poetic in his use of language, and takes liberties with how he phrases things. For example, he similarly takes liberty with the term "law." To understand Paul properly you need to look past the immediate language and at the larger concepts he is presenting. You aren't the first to be confused by Paul's words.
2 Peter 3:15-17 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.​
You are the one that confuses Paul... not me.

God separated Israel as his people, but people of any nation were always free to join if they would accept God's Law. No different than now - for under the New Covenant God's Law is written on our hearts and minds.
  • I have FREQUENTLY pointed out to people that gentiles were always welcome to join with Israel.
  • Prior to the revelation given to Paul, they were not "neither Jew nor Greek". etc. etc.
  • The NEW covenant is between the SAME TWO parties as the OLD covenant: Israel and God (per Jeremiah and Hebrews).
  • The NEW covenant is yet future (yes, I know you have issue with that too).
I've said it multiple times: if you think the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Gospel of Christ, the Gospel of the Son, the Gospel of God, etc. are distinct - then show where in scripture these are differentiated and to whom each applies. There are no such passages because there is no difference.
Christ sent His TWELVE apostles that will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of Israel to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel only in the beginning. There was a REASON for that.

Mat 10:5-7 KJV These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
You are the one that confuses Paul... not me.

No, it is very clearly you. Hence you have to constantly throw out his teachings, as you do Christ's, whenever they don't agree with you. Nor can you substantiate your claims. You say there are multiple gospels for different people, yet Paul says there is one. You say we aren't part of Israel - Paul says we are, and that we share in their blessings. You say our works are irrelevant to salvation - Paul says we are judged by our deeds, and that those who pursue what is good and righteous shall be rewarded with eternal life. etc.

More to the point - if Paul believed that the Gospel of Christ, the Gospel of the Son, the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Gospel of God, etc. were all different - he surely would have spent some time differentiating them from one another. But he didn't. And if that were what he taught, then if he didn't write of it then surely someone else in the early church would have written of it. Once again, the Church Fathers wrote nothing about how these were different gospels. So there is nothing to substantiate your position, and everything to contradict it.

You have invented these divisions out of thin air - and for the purpose of cherry-picking the scriptures to your liking.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

  • I have FREQUENTLY pointed out to people that gentiles were always welcome to join with Israel.
  • Prior to the revelation given to Paul, they were not "neither Jew nor Greek". etc. etc.
  • The NEW covenant is between the SAME TWO parties as the OLD covenant: Israel and God (per Jeremiah and Hebrews).
  • The NEW covenant is yet future (yes, I know you have issue with that too).

First off, when a gentile joined Israel - he become part of Israel and was no longer a gentile. Thus, even before Paul, there was no division between jew and gentile IN CHRIST.

Secondly, by recognizing that people could always join Israel, you lose your talking point about how the Gospel of the Kingdom is supposedly different from all the other "Gospel Of X" references in scripture (none of which you have expounded upon).

Thirdly, while there maybe some future components to the prophecy of the New Covenant, the New Covenant is already in effect.

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”​

2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:1-6 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being. 3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Hebrews 9:11-15 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God! 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


You say the New Covenant is future, Paul declares that he is a minister of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is already in effect, Christ has already entered the Most Holy Place and serves as High Priest of this New Covenant.

Christ sent His TWELVE apostles that will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of Israel to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel only in the beginning. There was a REASON for that.

Mat 10:5-7 KJV These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

He did go to Israel first, but that was only in the beginning. It was never the intention that his gospel remain only with Israel - hence he subsequently instructed them to go to all nations.

Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Come on now, the Great Commission, the New Covenant, this is basic stuff.
 

JudgeRightly

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No, it is very clearly you. Hence you have to constantly throw out his teachings, as you do Christ's, whenever they don't agree with you. Nor can you substantiate your claims. You say there are multiple gospels for different people, yet Paul says there is one. You say we aren't part of Israel - Paul says we are, and that we share in their blessings. You say our works are irrelevant to salvation - Paul says we are judged by our deeds, and that those who pursue what is good and righteous shall be rewarded with eternal life. etc.

More to the point - if Paul believed that the Gospel of Christ, the Gospel of the Son, the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Gospel of God, etc. were all different - he surely would have spent some time differentiating them from one another. But he didn't. And if that were what he taught, then if he didn't write of it then surely someone else in the early church would have written of it. Once again, the Church Fathers wrote nothing about how these were different gospels. So there is nothing to substantiate your position, and everything to contradict it.

You have invented these divisions out of thin air - and for the purpose of cherry-picking the scriptures to your liking.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.



First off, when a gentile joined Israel - he become part of Israel and was no longer a gentile. Thus, even before Paul, there was no division between jew and gentile IN CHRIST.

Secondly, by recognizing that people could always join Israel, you lose your talking point about how the Gospel of the Kingdom is supposedly different from all the other "Gospel Of X" references in scripture (none of which you have expounded upon).

Thirdly, while there maybe some future components to the prophecy of the New Covenant, the New Covenant is already in effect.

1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”​

2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:1-6 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being. 3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Hebrews 9:11-15 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God! 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


You say the New Covenant is future, Paul declares that he is a minister of the New Covenant. The New Covenant is already in effect, Christ has already entered the Most Holy Place and serves as High Priest of this New Covenant.



He did go to Israel first, but that was only in the beginning. It was never the intention that his gospel remain only with Israel - hence he subsequently instructed them to go to all nations.

Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Come on now, the Great Commission, the New Covenant, this is basic stuff.
Then the question you must answer is...

Why Paul?

Why would God make a 13th Apostle, when He already had 12 other Apostles who were already well qualified for teaching this supposed one gospel?
 

csuguy

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Then the question you must answer is...

Why Paul?

Why would God make a 13th Apostle, when He already had 12 other Apostles who were already well qualified for teaching this supposed one gospel?

1 Corinthians 3:5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

Paul is just one of many who serve the Lord. He wasn't the replacement for Judas either - that was Matthias (Acts 1:12-26)
 

JudgeRightly

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1 Corinthians 3:5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

That doesn't answer my question.

Why did God make Paul an Apostle?

Specifically, why did God give Paul special revelation of this supposed one gospel when there were already 12 other Apostles who were already thoroughly familiar with it?

Paul is just one of many who serve the Lord. He wasn't the replacement for Judas either - that was Matthias (Acts 1:12-26)

I didn't say He was.

Read what I said again.

Why did God make Paul the 13th Apostle when there were already twelve others who were qualified to teach this supposed one gospel?
 

JudgeRightly

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And... what about Junia, a female named an apostle?
Did Jesus directly speak to her about what she should teach? Or was she taught by Paul and/or those whom he taught?

I don't disagree that she was an apostle.

My point is that if there is only one gospel, then there was no need for Paul.
 

csuguy

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That doesn't answer my question.

Why did God make Paul an Apostle?

Specifically, why did God give Paul special revelation of this supposed one gospel when there were already 12 other Apostles who were already thoroughly familiar with it?

God called many people - Paul was one of them. He gave himself fully to the ministry of the Gospel, and God was able to use him to reach many. You assume there is something special about Paul, even as Paul tells you that he is merely one of many servants of the Lord.

I didn't say He was.

Read what I said again.

Why did God make Paul the 13th Apostle when there were already twelve others who were qualified to teach this supposed one gospel?

God continued to make apostles because the Gospel message was to be spread to the entire world. 12 or 13 people doesn't cut it - that's merely a starting place.
 
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