Return to Oneness

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Yes John, and we might remind others here that the 'Self' refers to 'Brahman/atman', and does NOT refer to the limited concept of 'self' being the human ego with its finite limitations. However these critics here have apparently not studied or understood Advaita Vedanta (or Hinduism in general) despite resource links for their education on the matter so they continually misrepresent and mis-interpret what is being shared, further adding their own preconceived beliefs into the equation, which is really 'missing the forest for the trees'. (my commentaries on 'oneness' however are not limited to 'Advaita' as I take an eclectic approach here).

Sadly their own ignorance is described by their own derogatory terms upon these insights or propositions, because of the misunderstanding, which hides the value of what is being shared and assumes some sort of 'enemy' or 'anti-christ' that needs to be 'downtrodden' or 'exposed'. This keeps the religious 'matrix' going alive and well, while one's true nature as 'atman' continues to be clouded over, which is pure consciousness itself. The ignorance of these critics will continue until further enlightened, but that cant happen until the conditions and will allow for their own research and openness to consider 'Advaita' in its various forms, which points to the primordial unity at the heart of all....and 'God' (call it by any name you like) is the 'Heart' of all. And 'all' means 'all'.

I thought to expound more on non-duality in this umbrella thread on the topic of oneness, until I begin a new thread on the subject. Hopefully readers can consider the information and propositions for themselves and come to their own experiential knowledge, for that is the only way anyone can know for themselves....and we are still ever learning

More on how 'Brahman' and 'atman' are one and the same can be treated in a forthcoming 'Advaita' thread, and fundamentally this 'sameness' or 'oneness' concerns essence/nature....even though 'atmans' assume a human identity (body-mind complex/ego) and consciousness takes on various formal attachments in the physical world.

Concept of God and Soul in Hinduism (note there are 3 main schools, one of pure non-duality, a qualified non-duality, and 'duality' based cosmology, there being a great diversity of viewpoints within the university of Hinduism. Advaita is only one prominent school within Hinduism).

Namaste,

pj

Ummm... No. You must always accuse others of not understanding. I know exactly what the teachings espouse. I'm quite enlightened regarding the details of the alleged "Self" (not merely the ego you refer to).

You're just arrogant and condescending, presuming nobody could possibly be enlightened and reject this crap for exactly what it is.

There isn't one ounce of love in anything you say or do. It's the exponential height of human depravity in pride.

Pure gnosticism of the lowest order. Psuche. Soul. Not one bit of Spirit. None. Devoid.

There is no life in Psuche. Only the breath that is Spirit.

Consciousness is nothing, not everything.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear PPS and Rocketman,

freelight is welcome to speak about his own religion just like you both are welcome to speak about your own. Don't gang up on him. It's not fair. His beliefs may be different than yours, but that is his right to believe in them or not. Now come on, am I right? He's not forcing them down no one's face. If you don't like it here, you don't have to come here. It's that simple.

In Christ's Name and In the Freedom of God,

MichaelC

 

[John Mortimer]

There is no covert or overt, underlying or overarching sense or means in or by or through which man was or is or ever becomes Divine.

I agree - although there needs to be razor sharp clarity as to what is meant by "man" and "Divine".

 

[John Mortimer]

Yes John, and we might remind others here that the 'Self' refers to 'Brahman/atman', and does NOT refer to the limited concept of 'self' being the human ego with its finite limitations.

Yes indeed. That is a very important point. But that which we take ourselves to be, (a body-mind), is itself the product of the body-mind. What exactly is this body-mind and how did it come to be?

However these critics here have apparently not studied or understood Advaita Vedanta (or Hinduism in general) despite resource links for their education on the matter so they continually misrepresent and mis-interpret what is being shared, further adding their own preconceived beliefs into the equation, which is really 'missing the forest for the trees'.

If it is in their nature, (elemental make-up), to manifest this way then it is observed. The Supreme Awareness is supremely indifferent to the passing show.

(my commentaries on 'oneness' however are not limited to 'Advaita' as I take an eclectic approach here).

Understood. You are doing a grand job, as ever.

More on how 'Brahman' and 'atman' are one and the same can be treated in a forthcoming 'Advaita' thread, and fundamentally this 'sameness' or 'oneness' concerns essence/nature....even though 'atmans' assume a human identity (body-mind complex/ego) and consciousness takes on various formal attachments in the physical world.

Looking forward to that.

 

[PureX]

Consciousness is nothing, not everything.

And yet without it, you would not even be conscious of your Jesus-God. You could not perceive yourself as being so much wiser and more enlightened than the rest of us dolts. And you would not know that you are so much more loving than those who might disagree with your vision of truth. Imagine how small you would feel without your conscious self to be aware of it's own magnificence!

 

[bybee]

And yet without it, you would not even be conscious of your Jesus-God. You could not perceive yourself as being so much wiser and more enlightened than the rest of us dolts. And you would not know that you are so much more loving than those who might disagree with your vision of truth. Imagine how small you would feel without your conscious self to be aware of it's own magnificence!

Amazing isn't it?
Some people look into a magnifying mirror and mistake it for reality!
I have learned that a firm foundation speaks for itself.

 

[PureX]

I honestly know very little of Hinduism. Except perhaps that like most religions, it recognizes God being manifested in our reality in different ways, and then names those various manifestations as though they were independent divine entities, similar to Christianity's ideal of God (as God the father), human exemplification of God (as God the son), and spiritual expression of God (as God the "holy ghost"). God is God, but because God is beyond our comprehension, we experience God in a myriad of ways, and to help us cognate and interact with God in these different ways, we "personify" God as a multiplex.

I have no issue with this multiplex concept, as taoism recognizes that it's the "tao of man" to personify the Great Mystery (that we call God) as we do.

 

[bybee]

I honestly know very little of Hinduism. Except perhaps that like most religions, it recognizes God being manifested in our reality in different ways, and then names those various manifestations as though they were independent divine entities, similar to Christianity's ideal of God (as God the father), human exemplification of God (as God the son), and spiritual expression of God (as God the "holy ghost"). God is God, but because God is beyond our comprehension, we experience God in a myriad of ways, and to help us cognate and interact with God in these different ways, we "personify" God as a multiplex.

I have no issue with this multiplex concept, as taoism recognizes that it's the "tao of man" to personify the Great Mystery (that we call God) as we do.

I am a Christian. By saying yes to one way I say no to all other ways.
But I know that the Living God calls to each heart in a way suited to best elicit a response.
I love Joshua's statement "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord"! It still gives me goosebumps!

 

[PureX]

I am a Christian. By saying yes to one way I say no to all other ways.
But I know that the Living God calls to each heart in a way suited to best elicit a response.
I love Joshua's statement "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord"! It still gives me goosebumps!

It's easy for us (with our egos) to forget that God is so much greater and more wondrous than we mere humans could ever conceive. So that our concepts of God are necessarily very limited, and stuck within our own cultural and intellectual circumstances. It's simply the way of humankind for us to be so.

I, personally, identify with Christianity because although I am a taoist, and do not believe that as a human being I can "know truth", I can know love. And I can know the value of love, and forgiveness, and the spiritual healing that can be achieved through these gifts. To me, this is the message of Christ, and I know by my own experiences that this message is true. It's been true for me, and for many others, and I believe it's true for us all. It may not be the whole truth, but it's a truth I can know, as a limited human being.

However other Christians come to grasp this truth is up to them, of course, and I don't wish to obstruct them. I only wish to share my own experiences and perceptions as an offering, which they are free to take or to leave, as they see fit. But as a member of the body of humanity, I feel it's each of our duty to share what we have to share. And try to do so with respect (in spite of our egos) if we can.

 

[John Mortimer]

It's easy for us (with our egos) to forget that God is so much greater and more wondrous than we mere humans could ever conceive. So that our concepts of God are necessarily very limited, and stuck within our own cultural and intellectual circumstances. It's simply the way of humankind for us to be so.

I, personally, identify with Christianity because although I am a taoist, and do not believe that as a human being I can "know truth", I can know love. And I can know the value of love, and forgiveness, and the spiritual healing that can be achieved through these gifts. To me, this is the message of Christ, and I know by my own experiences that this message is true. It's been true for me, and for many others, and I believe it's true for us all. It may not be the whole truth, but it's a truth I can know, as a limited human being.

However other Christians come to grasp this truth is up to them, of course, and I don't wish to obstruct them. I only wish to share my own experiences and perceptions as an offering, which they are free to take or to leave, as they see fit. But as a member of the body of humanity, I feel it's each of our duty to share what we have to share. And try to do so with respect (in spite of our egos) if we can.

Great post!

I can see how beautifully the teachings and example of Jesus would harmonize with the Tao. I'm glad you shared that because it is FAR easier to understand where you're coming from now. Excellent!

 

[Zeke]

The folly is yours...congratulations you have joined the faith of the godless, you have been robbed, ripped off, and all you have left is emptiness...:sigh:

The scripture proclaims that there is no Jew or Gentile, Male or Female in the children of light, (one new man) who has reached the level of enlightenment where fear no longer guides the ships of liberty, your still sailing on condemnation and mind control.

To me your the one who is in a prison, your mind has been stolen and implanted with a virus that infects most religious people, the boogieman is around every corner and the narrow road of dogma has you afraid of anything out side your belief system.

Plus I have never felt more at peace than now, the only struggle is the residue of arrogance left over from my dogma programming days of slavery.

Your breaking one of the ten commandments, have no other gods before ME!!! which means "you" the temple of God.

The kingdom of God is within you Rocketman a micro version of the macro, which is why the stars and seasons effect us, and like it or not your part of the total sum of Gods creation.

Grace, peace, Zeke.

 

[False Prophet]

Unity is necessary to being one. Unfortunately there are too many divisions, and that which is rejected by God, cannot be reconciled to him.
"Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters, Rev 17:1
[2] And he called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
It has become a dwelling place of demons,
a haunt of every foul spirit,
a haunt of every foul and hateful bird;
[3] for all nations have drunk the wine of her impure passion,
and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her,
and the merchants of the earth have grown rich with the wealth of
her wantonness."
[4]
Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
"Come out of her, my people, Rev 18
You cannot reconcile to God what he has rejected, so there cannot be oneness and agreement among Babylon's members.

 

[freelight]

What is fundamental.......

What is fundamental.......

And yet without it, you would not even be conscious of your Jesus-God. You could not perceive yourself as being so much wiser and more enlightened than the rest of us dolts. And you would not know that you are so much more loving than those who might disagree with your vision of truth. Imagine how small you would feel without your conscious self to be aware of it's own magnificence!

Yes, and 'jest' above asides..... as shared before, the premise that all is consciousness assumes that all exists within consciousness as it arises concurrently with-in the genesis and continuum of material creation, yet in its spiritual-dimension and invisible nature it is prior to the appearing of the world and also transcends it....as there is that primordial awareness which observes all rising phenomena as it comes and goes (it being 'unchanging' observing change). In this context consciousness emerges out of this primal awareness and includes the contents and movements of space-time, the play of relativity.

We conjecture that 'Para Brahman' is that reality prior to consciousness relating to the world (senses, effects, phenomena, space-time). This consciousness serving as a doorway or 'gate' wherein we intuit the original reality, because it is the 'source' of all. Still, 'consciousness' remains fundamental to existence, no matter what 'concept' of 'God' one 'assumes' in their own religious tradition or chosen mythology.

~*~*~

Consciousness is all (Peter Francis Dziuban has some cutting edge teaching on 'consciousness' following the stream of an earlier pioneer on 'absolute reality', Alfred Aiken).




pj

 

[freelight]

I Am is the center-point of infinity

I Am is the center-point of infinity

Amazing isn't it?
Some people look into a magnifying mirror and mistake it for reality!
I have learned that a firm foundation speaks for itself.

'Reality' is always Self-referenced. This becomes clear when one understands what the 'Self'(atman) is within a Hindu understanding, back to 'Advaita'(non-duality). All there is, is this One reflecting Awareness, aware of every point and facet of all it can perceive or know,...all that is within dimension and beyond dimension. This all there is....including all that can be defined or not, and more......



pj

 

[John Mortimer]

We conjecture that 'Para Brahman' is that reality prior to consciousness relating to the world (senses, effects, phenomena, space-time). This consciousness serving as a doorway or 'gate' wherein we intuit the original reality, because it is the 'source' of all. Still, 'consciousness' remains fundamental to existence, no matter what 'concept' of 'God' one 'assumes' in their own religious tradition or chosen mythology.

Yes, consciousness is fundamental to existence - however in the deep sleep state, (dreamless sleep), consciousness subsides yet there is still existence. Nisargadatta indicates that consciousness is latent in that state. But he is very careful to point out that deep sleep is not Parabrahman. Deep sleep is a state but Parabrahman is absolutely no state, though all states arise within it.

Fascinating!

I look forward to your saying more in your own words about Brahman, Atman and Parabrahman, freelight. Looks as if the time is ripe for such a thread.

 

[rocketman]

The scripture proclaims that there is no Jew or Gentile, Male or Female in the children of light, (one new man) who has reached the level of enlightenment where fear no longer guides the ships of liberty, your still sailing on condemnation and mind control.

Where? What scripture? certainly not the Holy Writ.

To me your the one who is in a prison, your mind has been stolen and implanted with a virus that infects most religious people, the boogieman is around every corner and the narrow road of dogma has you afraid of anything out side your belief system.

What boogieman Zeke? I am quite aware of other belief systems but, that awareness does not bring forth Truth. There is no truth that resides within you absent of the infallible Christ who created you, yet you reject that truth for your own fallible humanist lie. It does baffle the mind to understand where the freedom is absent of Truth.

John 8:31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples.
John 8:32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Plus I have never felt more at peace than now, the only struggle is the residue of arrogance left over from my dogma programming days of slavery.

Pseudo peace, or your feeling (emotion) of peace is a sham, you have been ripped off, robbed of true peace that comes through the surrendering of "Self" unto your creator and the realization that peace comes through the "Prince of Peace" Jesus Christ. That is the rub now isn't it? surrender...the acknowledgement that there is a God and you aint it.

Your breaking one of the ten commandments, have no other gods before ME!!! which means "you" the temple of God.

:chuckle: That is a good one...How do you equate being the temple of God as being a God or a god for that matter. God taking residence within me does not nor will it ever make me diety, devine or otherwise a god. I have no aspirations to take His position.

The kingdom of God is within you Rocketman a micro version of the macro, which is why the stars and seasons effect us, and like it or not your part of the total sum of Gods creation.

You are correct that I am a part of His creation...period.

Grace, peace, Zeke.

In Christ there is both Zeke...Grace & Peace that is.

 

[rocketman]

You clearly misunderstand and misinterpret what the 'Self' (note the capital "S") in Hinduism is referring to, if you assume it is a human ego-self. The Self refers to the 'atman' (individual-soul, immortal, eternal being) which is of the same essence of 'Brahman' (Universal Soul, immortal, Eternal Being). It has nothing to do with 'selfishness' or a temporal 'ego' in the negative egostistical sense at all. There is no exuse for ignorance or misinterpretations on this matter.

There is no ignorance of the "not so new" aspirations of "Self" as they are as old as man himself and still just as erroneous. All roads do not lead to God, nor are you a g(G)od, and focusing on your"Self" is only complicating your quest to find the One True God.

I understand this is further complicated coming to this teaching from a Judeo-Christian point of view with its strict dualism in place and a 'God' that is wholly separate from souls, being wholly 'other' or 'transcendent'. Further conceptions of 'God' make 'God' wholly unavailable and even more remote.

God is not wholly separate from souls though He does reject the proud ie "Self", God shares his glory with no mortal man.

God has not made Himself unavailable but, He is God, you are not and you must meet Him on His terms which means the surrender of "Self" which seems to be the sticking point for you demigods. You have to first admit that you are not a god, not divine, but, a fallen creature in need of a God. He is quite available just not on your terms, you must seek Him.

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[Zeke]

rocketman;3653692]Where? What scripture? certainly not the Holy Writ.

I guess you haven't read Paul then.

What boogieman Zeke? I am quite aware of other belief systems but, that awareness does not bring forth Truth. There is no truth that resides within you absent of the infallible Christ who created you, yet you reject that truth for your own fallible humanist lie. It does baffle the mind to understand where the freedom is absent of Truth.

Right, this coming from the cracked mirror of christian brainwashing, you can't even agree with each other, but you have the correct version, right Rocket?

John 8:31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples.
John 8:32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Its allegory rocketman it never happened literally, you worship a book and goosebumps.

Pseudo peace, or your feeling (emotion) of peace is a sham, you have been ripped off, robbed of true peace that comes through the surrendering of "Self" unto your creator and the realization that peace comes through the "Prince of Peace" Jesus Christ. That is the rub now isn't it? surrender...the acknowledgement that there is a God and you aint it.

Your the robber here, trying to convince yourself what you believe is right, knowing is far better. Your still casting your net off the left side of your ship of condemnnation! I guess your not the master of your own house so you take it out on others who don't need a myth to come save them, the answer is inside us all not some religious book wrongly interpreted. But I guess the world was out of luck till your book showed up.

:chuckle: That is a good one...How do you equate being the temple of God as being a God or a god for that matter. God taking residence within me does not nor will it ever make me diety, devine or otherwise a god. I have no aspirations to take His position.

Clues all through your scriptures that it is all about the human body, and mind, your religion has you to spooked to understand that science.

So your not doing greater works than Jesus? he said you would.

You are correct that I am a part of His creation...period.

Dido.

In Christ there is both Zeke...Grace & Peace that is.

You don't even know what Christ was, or is.

 

[Zeke]

Anyway sorry to derail the thread, I will let Rocket and cohorts have the last word.

Ubuntu, Zeke.

 

[freelight]

Understanding the 'atman'........

Understanding the 'atman'........

There is no ignorance of the "not so new" aspirations of "Self" as they are as old as man himself and still just as erroneous. All roads do not lead to God, nor are you a g(G)od, and focusing on your"Self" is only complicating your quest to find the One True God.

God is not wholly separate from souls though He does reject the proud ie "Self", God shares his glory with no mortal man.

God has not made Himself unavailable but, He is God, you are not and you must meet Him on His terms which means the surrender of "Self" which seems to be the sticking point for you demigods. You have to first admit that you are not a god, not divine, but, a fallen creature in need of a God. He is quite available just not on your terms, you must seek Him.

Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Further study recommended before engaging inter-faith dialogue.

You're still not 'getting' the Hindu view or concept of the 'atman', which is not the limited human ego-self, so we're just talking past each other. If you want to follow along it helps to understand where the terms & meanings the other is using and where they are coming from "within context", then a 'dialogue' and further exploration can ensue.

Understanding the 'atman' and its relationship with 'Brahman' or as 'Brahman' holds that within every human being is that eternal, immortal, incorruptible, divine principle or seed-consciousness...which is of 'God', so it is that principle which is 'God' being the eternal essence in the soul of man and the soul of the universe, since that divine presence and principle is OMNIPRESENT.

Ample explanations and links have been provided on such, besides basic info. that can be acquired from the vast libraries of knowledge online. In that case, 'google' can be your best friend. Otherwise its just a candy-toss and kindergarten banter over whose bag of candy is better than the other which fails miserably when it comes to a serious exploration of the subject at hand, especially when the truth of 'God being ONE' is central to most all mono and pan-theistic theologies. Since 'God' is 'One',....the entirety of infinity can only always be One, which includes the total cosmos and all its evolutions, no matter the variations.

Concept of 'Self' in Hinduism

See 'atman' and 'Brahman' in the various schools of Sanatana Dharma. The complexity of the terms do require extra study. We also covered this in our no longer extant thread on 'Hinduism' here in previous years. Without understanding it, no real dialogue could be had since misconceptions and ignorance prevent such from occurring. In due time a new thread on 'Sanatana Dharma' will be forthcoming. Such a rich diverse tradition such as this represents a full spectrum of religious experience and philosophical genius, since it covers almost all possible views expressed in the universal experience and language of man.

Self- Atma

I might also remind you this is the 'Religion' section where all contributors have 'equal opportunity' to share their views on 'religion' in its various expressions and forms. Therefore every 'religion' has a place in the discussion, especially on an 'inter-faith' level which some of us more 'eclectic' ones can excel in doing.

Otherwise, coming from a Christian background and 'religious experience',..I'm able to synthesize or correlate aspects within various religious traditions and enjoy exploring those parellels, since universal symbols, archetypes and correlaries exist within them pointing to an underlying fundamental ultimate truth.

At the core of most mono or pan-theistic cosmologies is the concept of the universal unity of all creation existing because the nature of its source is indivisible, since creation depends on or inheres in that universal consciousenss or Spirit-presence, the cause co-existing and being inherent within the effect. On that basis the omnipresence of 'God' pervades thru all its forms or effects, since they cannot exist separate from their source. Krishnananda gives a wonderful commentary on the 'atman' here in his survey of two Upanishads, touching on the issue of 'cause' and 'effect', which really excites me



pj