Apple7
New member
The Koran is different in this respect, as the authors openly admit that they merely copied the previous Holy Bible (alkitab) and converted it piecemeal into Arabic.
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The Koran is different in this respect, as the authors openly admit that they merely copied the previous Holy Bible (alkitab) and converted it piecemeal into Arabic.
Since, like the Bible, the Qur’an is a human product, I doubt that the “authors” could even be identified.
Evidence is lacking as to any admissions made by the original scribes. They are lost to history.
Apple7
New member
The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired, thus, we should not expect that it was.
The Holy Bible, however, does claim to be divinely inspired, thus, we should expect that it is.
Your post is puzzling to me.
On one hand Islam tells us that Muhammed was a prophet and that Allah dictated his teachings to Muhammed which Muhammed wrote down.
And on the other, you seem to be claiming that the Qu’ran was not divinely inspired.
Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel.
The world’s faiths do claim many things.
Most of these things are faith statements, theologies or metaphors.
In the case of Christianity, the theology was added much later.
The theology of the crucifixion [blood atonement for remission of human sin] was not in evidence until some 900 years after Jesus’ death by the theologian Anselm of Canterbury.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
:mock: stoopid mooslims
You spelled “stupid” wrong.
And you also spelled “Muslims” wrong.
I don’t think it is at all intellligent.
But that is only my opinion.
Apple7
New member
What islam claims, and what the Koran says, are two entirely different things.
No one named 'Muhammad' had anything at all to do with the Koran, according to the Koran.
No angel Gabriel had anything to do with inspiring someone named 'Muhammad' according to the Koran.
Be wary of Islamic myth, lest you fall into its false narrative...
Absolutely. Just like all religions. What Christianity claims and what Jesus actually taught are markedly different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_the_Quran
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Obviously, not literally. It is a faith claim. It is not history.
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In religion, myth is the closest we can come to absolute truth.
We need stories. Since ancient times, we have turned to stories, tales, and myths in order to articulate our understanding of the cosmos.
Not only do these narratives enable us to describe reality, they portray humanity’s place and purpose in the creation. Stories help us figure out the world, describe norms and ideals, and give us guidelines as to how we are to successfully navigate through life.
As the Native American storyteller once said “I don’t know if the story I am going to tell you really happened. I only know that it is true."
Christian writer C.S. Lewis warns us that "we must not be ashamed of the mythical radiance resting in our theology. For this is the marriage of heaven and earth: Perfect Myth and Perfect Fact: wonder and delight, addressed to the savage, the child, the poet in each one of us no less than the moralist, the scholar, and the philosopher.
bibleverse2
New member
That brought to mind:
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Because Islam falsely claims that the anti-Gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).
Islam is an anti-Gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72), and it denies that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the third day. In order to be saved from hell, people have to believe the Gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).
The reason why it is necessary to believe these things to be saved from hell is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus Christ's suffering during His Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).
One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus Christ can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says that there was no time when the Koran did not exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says that before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when He did not exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).
This is not to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, again, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-Gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).
Do you have a source for this?
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
It's interesting to read Christ's epistle to the Gentile king (recorded for us in Eusebius). He doesn't mention anything theologically, but He does confirm what the Gospels depict, that He had attracted quite a following in Judea during His earthly ministry. Because He confirmed something that we read in the Gospels, we Christians can imo justifiably read the Gospels knowing that Christ Jesus Himself confirms that they are true. This is analogous to how we can read the whole New Testament with the same certainty, because we read in the Gospels how the Lord gave God's own teaching authority to His Apostles, and it is this authority that authorized the New Testament; it is why we even have the New Testament, the anthology has been handed down to us from the Apostles, through the authentic pastorate that the Apostles themselves established, presumably acting on the command of Jesus in so doing.
But Muslims believe that it is history, just as we Christians believe that Christ's Resurrection is nonfiction historical fact. It happened.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
'Comports with 1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV. If Christianity is true, Islam /the Quran cannot be true.
The Church spread like wildfire because of the witnesses (in Greek 'witness' is 'martyr') of Christ's Resurrection first and foremost. That was enough to break pagans out of their paganism, and I believe that it's still enough to break Muslims out of their Islam, Jews out of their Judaism, atheists out their atheism, Hindus and Buddhists out of their Hinduism and Buddhism.
If Christ is really risen, then the rest of the authentic Christian faith is confirmed. Christ is God, yes, along with a whole wonderful bundle of other things, but the leading edge of the Christian weaponry is His Resurrection from the dead on the third day. It pierces hearts.
There's a church built around His empty tomb in Jerusalem (it was outside Jerusalem when He rose, but Jerusalem's boundaries grew to include it now).
I doubt if you know either one.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Hardly. We have the eyewitness testimony of the evangelists; the strongest of which are: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They were closely examined by the world's foremost authority on evidence in jurisprudence: Dr. Simon Greenleaf, a founding law professor at Harvard University's School of Law. He was a staunch atheist who was challenged to study the gospels as evidence and take apart the Christian 'myth' by doing so. He took on that challenge, but he found not only that the gospels were true but also were proof that Jesus lived, died and rose again and in point-of-fact is indeed: God, in The Flesh. He wrote a great book on the subject, "The Testimony of the Evangelists," a brief synopsis is below. You can download the whole book on a free PDF HERE.
Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853)
Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen.
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In examining the evidence of the Christian religion, it is essential to the discovery of truth that we bring to the investigation a mind freed, as far as possible, from existing prejudice, and open to conviction. There should be a readiness, on our part, to investigate with candor to follow the truth wherever it may lead us, and to submit, without reserve or objection, to all the teachings of this religion, if it be found to be of divine origin. "There is no other entrance," says Lord Bacon, "to the kingdom of man, which is founded in the sciences, than to the kingdom of heaven, into which no one can enter but in the character of a little child." The docility which true philosophy requires of her disciples is not a spirit of servility, or the surrender of the reason and judgment to whatsoever the teacher may inculcate; but it is a mind free from all pride of opinion, not hostile to the truth sought for, willing to pursue the inquiry, and impartiality to weigh the arguments and evidence, and to acquiesce in the judgment of right reason. The investigation, moreover, should be pursued with the serious earnestness which becomes the greatness of the subject--a subject fraught with such momentous consequences to man. It should be pursued as in the presence of God, and under the solemn sanctions created by a lively sense of his omniscience, and of our accountability to him for the right use of the faculties which he has bestowed.
In requiring this candor and simplicity of mind in those who would investigate the truth of our religion, Christianity demands nothing more than is readily conceded to every branch of human science. All these have their data, and their axioms; and Christianity, too, has her first principles, the admission of which is essential to any real progress in knowledge. "Christianity," says Bishop Wilson, "inscribes on the portal of her dominion 'Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall in nowise enter therein.' Christianity does not profess to convince the perverse and headstrong, to bring irresistible evidence to the daring and profane, to vanquish the proud scorner, and afford evidences from which the careless and perverse cannot possibly escape. This might go to destroy man's responsibility. All that Christianity professes, is to propose such evidences as may satisfy the meek, the tractable, the candid, the serious inquirer."
Read the entire summary: HERE.
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Wow. Thats a post right there
Apple7
New member
Sure.
Any Arabic lexicon proves this point.
The term 'Muhammad' is a passive participle. i.e. it combines the functions of both adjective and verb. It was NEVER a proper name as used in the Koran.
Its four usages in the Koran all have the Biblical Jesus as the referent.
Apple7
New member
Aimiel
Well-known member
If anyone who has any sense yet pretends to be atheist would read it: they just might change their mind.
I gave you a neg and here is why. Anyone who uses the forum to leave a several page long blog is abusing the forum. No one is going to read for a half hour your blog when they are here to communicate!
Aimiel
Well-known member
Sorry you feel that way. I find Dr. Greenleaf's writing inspired and stimulating. It's unique and un-equaled as far as I'm concerned. The type of thinking and the investigation that he put into seeking Truth is exhilarating and I find that most people won't click on a link but might be inclined to gloss over and maybe even read the synopsis of a near one thousand page book which delved into the evidence we have of the single most important Person in history: Jesus. He said that we have more proof of Jesus' life, death and resurrection than we have of any single person in antiquity, simply from the evidence found in the New Testament. Coming from someone with the authority he has regarding court evidence: that says a lot.