Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation
- Thread starter Sonnet
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Sonnet
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The model for Christians:
However, let's recapitulate John Piper's model - he preaches the Gospel to the unsaved:
Here, we have all Piper's auditors believing that nobody is excluded from salvation - but Piper's actual teaching which is not revealed to them is:
John 18:20
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.”
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.”
However, let's recapitulate John Piper's model - he preaches the Gospel to the unsaved:
"...embrace the gospel that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the righteous one, died for your sins..."
Here, we have all Piper's auditors believing that nobody is excluded from salvation - but Piper's actual teaching which is not revealed to them is:
"We do not deny that Christ died to save all in some sense. Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:10 that in Christ God is “the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” What we deny is that the death of Christ is for all men in the same sense. God sent Christ to save all in some sense. And he sent Christ to save those who believe in a more particular sense. God’s intention is different for each. That is a natural way to read 1 Timothy 4:10."
God's Truth
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It is affirmed just where I showed you. Now you can look it up yourself. Everywhere Paul says no works---circumcision is spoken of as being the work. Circumcision was the sign and seal, it is a purification work.
The people USED TO HAVE TO ESTABLISH a righteousness of their own and they did that when they got circumcised, adhered to a dietary law, did various external washings, and sacrificed animals, just to be able to worship God!
Do you really think that Paul is saying they obey too much?!!! They did not submit to God’s righteousness means Jesus’ blood cleans us JUST BY BELIEVING IT DOES. That is a righteousness by FAITH instead of by works of getting animals and doing various washings.
Everyone who believes that Jesus’ blood washes away the sins they repent of doing.
The Jews had to get circumcised, do various washings, and sacrifice animals OR THEY COULD BE KILLED.
They lived by those purification/ceremonial works.
Why do you think GOD WAS going to kill Moses?
Go ahead and explain why. I will not wait for you to go study I will just tell you. God was going to kill Moses because Moses was not going to circumcise his son.
Do you think that God nailed obedience to the cross?
Jesus came to earth and taught us the guidelines for a NEW covenant, and then he shed his blood on the cross for the new covenant. Covenants have to be followed exactly.
I have been responding to what you say. In order for your misunderstanding to be the truth, Jesus would not have told us anything new when he walked the earth, and God would have had to nail obedience to the cross; and Paul would never ever have told us to OBEY.
God's Truth
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What you teach is just as bad.
You teach we do not have to obey.
Who do you think is behind such a teaching?
Sonnet
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Show me where I say we do not have to obey?
Did David obey? No, he didn't - so are you affirming he remained unsaved?
Sonnet
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You have not responded to the specifics of my post. I asked:
In v.4 Paul says that Christ is the 'culmination of the law' - now is Paul referring to the entire law or just part of it GT?
All or just part GT?
God's Truth
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You are blind.
The whole old law went together. Jesus fulfilled the WHOLE OLD LAW. However, when Jesus came to earth, he did not preach the old law, he preached the NEW LAW and then shed his blood for the new law.
God's Truth
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Just listen to what you say here! You say did I say...and then you say David did not obey.
You are trying to confirm that we do not have to obey, but act as if you never said that. You are so confused and dishonest.
God's Truth
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YOU say David did not obey, but that is NOT what the Bible says.
The Bible says that David OBEYED EVERYTHING except with Uriah.
1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
Sonnet
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Right - David did not obey.
Sonnet
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Dishonest? I'm just affirming the truth about David.
Sonnet
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Didn't preach the old law?
Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practised the latter, without neglecting the former.”
In any case, since you accept that Jesus fulfilled the whole law, then your claim that the law spoken of in Romans 10 is only about the ceremonial aspects fails.
Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
Matt.21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Peace.
Peace.
Cross Reference
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I find it interesting the Jesus said they, after they, the Pharisees, had seen their error yet had not repented that they might believe on Him rather than the other way around, i.e. believe on Him before be able to repent.
Total depravity, anyone? Why not lets get serious about what man is capable of believing for/about himself unless God, after a long patience with him, turns him over to any longer being capable of receiving from Him that which can only rectify his life..
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In the Greek it breaks down to understands. In general, it is a theological reference that is interpreted differently within different factions of theological reference.
In that light, could you please expound on your personal conceptual "understanding" of the word "all" in light of election and non-election?
Signature: "If I've offended you, that's me getting in the way of Jesus. If you search the Scriptures open to only the guidance of God's Spirit to Theologically level me..... I've succeeded."
God's Truth
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Jesus saying they SHOULD HAVE OBEYED WHAT WAS COMMANDED means he did not give a NEW COVENANT?!!!
Jesus fulfilled the OLD LAW and gave us a NEW LAW.
God's Truth
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You said David did not obey. The scriptures say he obeyed except for the case with Uriah.
Then David confessed and repented of his sin and begged God to forgive him.
I don't hold with total depravity. I don't think it is a biblical doctrine at all, to start with. Furthermore, if it is really true that we are all born corrupt and evil through and through, then let's just go out and be as evil as we can. If it is our nature to be evil, then we should live true to our nature.