Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

Crucible said:
Tradition holds that eternal Hell is a reality which Jesus preached, and used Gehenna as metaphor much like the referring of ancient Rome as Babylon.

'Classical Hell' was a literal presumption which the Church put into doctrine, but the notion of a place of eternal punishment, in the general sense, is a dogma.

In the classical sense of Hell, it is place like Hinnom- it is a heap of fire and brimstone. But today, that has changed among many churches, including the Catholic Church itself actually who first put the doctrine into place.

It is now seen largely as a place commensurate to one's sins. Just as a person is called lesser or greater in Paradise, the degree of punishment in Hades is based on what one deserves.

But nonetheless, it is eternal and irreversible.
Click to expand...

I was not tying a hangman's noose. I have shared my perspective openly and I appreciate you sharing yours.

Respect.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentarymay I share an interesting verse or verses in light of this discussion?
 
Nameless.In.Grace

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Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

Tambora said:
Funny you should ask that.
The nation of Israel was elected by God.
Yet most Calvinist will adamantly proclaim that the Nation of Israel is no longer (or never were) elect,
Click to expand...

Too bad Romans 11 was kept in Cannon. [emoji6]

Romans 11:

17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree,

18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you.

19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.

22 Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27 And this will be My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.

.......... Interesting how many Christians do not accept Pauls words, but twist prophecy to reject the Jews.

If Paul had meant Spiritual Zion, he would have said it, instead he references Jacob and Israel directly, while paralleling much of John the revelators words about Zion of ancient and much of Zechariah's unfulfilled prophecies.

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Grosnick Marowbe

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Crucible said:
Tradition holds that eternal Hell is a reality which Jesus preached, and used Gehenna as metaphor much like the referring of ancient Rome as Babylon.

'Classical Hell' was a literal presumption which the Church put into doctrine, but the notion of a place of eternal punishment, in the general sense, is a dogma.

In the classical sense of Hell, it is place like Hinnom- it is a heap of fire and brimstone. But today, that has changed among many churches, including the Catholic Church itself actually who first put the doctrine into place.

It is now seen largely as a place commensurate to one's sins. Just as a person is called lesser or greater in Paradise, the degree of punishment in Hades is based on what one deserves.

But nonetheless, it is eternal and irreversible.
Click to expand...

You're likely not a member of the Body of Christ, yet, you presume to be a Bible Scholar?
 
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Nameless.In.Grace

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Tambora said:
Funny you should ask that.
The nation of Israel was elected by God.
Yet most Calvinist will adamantly proclaim that the Nation of Israel is no longer (or never were) elect,
Click to expand...

And again, to be direct,

Did we not learn that God's true election of Love is supreme to Manmade doctrines that attempt to define the body of the elect?

Excellent point. [emoji848]


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Pollice Verso

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Tambora said:
Funny you should ask that.
The nation of Israel was elected by God.
Yet most Calvinist will adamantly proclaim that the Nation of Israel is no longer (or never were) elect,
Click to expand...

The nation of Israel was God's chosen people, just as the church today is God's chosen people. However, that does not mean EVERY member of the church is elect just because they belong to a church, and not EVERY Israelite was elect in the OT just because they were an Israelite.

See Matt 7:22.
 
Crucible

Crucible

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Tambora said:
Funny you should ask that.
The nation of Israel was elected by God.
Yet most Calvinist will adamantly proclaim that the Nation of Israel is no longer (or never were) elect,
Click to expand...

Your flaw is presuming, merely, being an Israelite makes one an elect and by extension, you're taking away from the necessity of the Messiah. The elect are those who follow the Messiah- they are Israel.

God leads his people when they obey, and chastise them when they do not. Through the course of it, whole branches inevitably fall off altogether.
You all have it in your minds to split the gospel in two, which is ridiculous.

It might not have occurred to you, but the blood lineage of the Jews is barely existent today and Judaism itself has plunged into a great depth of alleged revelation completely contrary to Christianity. If people want to be idiots and abandon reality for false exegesis, then whatever :wave2:
 
Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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Pollice Verso said:
The nation of Israel was God's chosen people, just as the church today is God's chosen people. However, that does not mean EVERY member of the church is elect just because they belong to a church, and not EVERY Israelite was elect in the OT just because they were an Israelite.

See Matt 7:22.
Click to expand...

Your words remind me of John 1:47

Then Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him and said about him, "Here is a true Israelite; no deceit is in him.""

May our spiritual pride shudder and our hearts bow to God. [emoji848]


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Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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Pollice Verso said:
The nation of Israel was God's chosen people, just as the church today is God's chosen people. However, that does not mean EVERY member of the church is elect just because they belong to a church, and not EVERY Israelite was elect in the OT just because they were an Israelite.

See Matt 7:22.
Click to expand...

I would add of my own opinion that the same applies to the world outside of known Christendom, for how may we know where the Spirit blows, but by the swaying branches of Love?


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Nameless.In.Grace

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Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

Crucible said:
Your flaw is presuming, merely, being an Israelite makes one an elect and by extension, you're taking away from the necessity of the Messiah. The elect are those who follow the Messiah- they are Israel.
Click to expand...

For my Jewish brothers I stand up as Paul.

Be not proud in the defining of election.

The widow will not always mourn.

The house of hardened Jacob will mourn for the one they pierced.

I know I am contesting your verbiage with mine, and I accept whatever desire to rebuke me that comes forth.

But know that the full number of Gentiles has not come in yet.

Romans 11 speaks of this clearly and Paul is not an author of confusion.

Weep with Israel of today, for she remains an Oasis surround by enemies that would stomp Her out.

Know that God has never deserted the house and land of Jacob, though much of it has deserted Him.

He does not Love like we Love.

His ocean of Grace is sufficient for all matters of human error.

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Do not just Love those who Love you, for even the pagan does this. I say, "Love your enemies."


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Nameless.In.Grace

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Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

Is not Israel a Widow? Are not many orphaned, as they have no idea who their Father is?

What should we do?

James 1:27 (KJV)

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

........ But what must we do to remain spotless to the world?

Perhaps the covering Blood of Christ is Powerful?




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P

Pollice Verso

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Tambora said:
Still are.

Romans 11:28 KJV
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Click to expand...

Look at the context. Paul is making several points in Chapter 11. 1. Not all Jews are reprobate, since Paul is himself a Jew! 2. Gentiles and Jews have both sinned and are in need of a Savior, and both have received mercy. 3. Paul's overarching point is that to be one of God's people has nothing to do with race as it did in the Old Testament.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Crucible said:
Your flaw is presuming, merely, being an Israelite makes one an elect and by extension, you're taking away from the necessity of the Messiah. The elect are those who follow the Messiah- they are Israel.

God leads his people when they obey, and chastise them when they do not. Through the course of it, whole branches inevitably fall off altogether.
You all have it in your minds to split the gospel in two, which is ridiculous.

It might not have occurred to you, but the blood lineage of the Jews is barely existent today and Judaism itself has plunged into a great depth of alleged revelation completely contrary to Christianity. If people want to be idiots and abandon reality for false exegesis, then whatever :wave2:
Click to expand...

It's a real shame, you're not TRULY waving us goodbye. You'd not be missed.
 
Crucible

Crucible

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Nameless.In.Grace said:
http://wayvs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/saywhaaat.gif

Don't make this Jew for Jesus open up a can of Doberman.

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/tinycat.gif


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Click to expand...

Israel are the people who follow Jesus, Jew or Gentile. What people like Tambora here do is try to split the gospel in two, which is ridiculous because Jesus did not leave that option.

She's probably a dispensationalist, being that they love to shift and divide every grace and blessing in the scriptures. 'Right dividers' they call themselves. Yeah right, I'd like to see what Augustine and the rest would say about that :rolleyes:
 
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