Pollice Verso
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*I think* I'm on your side theologically, but after reading through this thread I don't see a trick question anywhere, TulipBee...
Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation
- Thread starter Sonnet
- Start date
:rotfl:
Calling Calvinism a 'cult' is hilarious, considering it is a most traditional and orthodox theology.
What I think- is that
it's threatening to those as yourself, because a lot of your notions are both contemporary and arbitrary
And you all know it to.. especially those dispensationalists :wave:
Who chooses the elect?
Who created the Non-Elect?
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Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation
Open Questions to all defenders of John Calvin.
Does the doctrine of Reprobation teach that God elects who He chooses?
Is the Elect less reprobate than the Non-Elect?
Who Is the Creator of the Non-Elect?
Is God Omnipotent?
What is the eternal fate of the Non-Elect?
Does a Loving Father, intentionally bring a child into the world, with foreknowledge that they will suffer eternally?
If these questions go uncontested, then I know you doubt Calvin, even if you continue to defend him.
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Open Questions to all defenders of John Calvin.
Does the doctrine of Reprobation teach that God elects who He chooses?
Is the Elect less reprobate than the Non-Elect?
Who Is the Creator of the Non-Elect?
Is God Omnipotent?
What is the eternal fate of the Non-Elect?
Does a Loving Father, intentionally bring a child into the world, with foreknowledge that they will suffer eternally?
If these questions go uncontested, then I know you doubt Calvin, even if you continue to defend him.
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The elect are those whom God, knowing their outcome before creation, worked into His providence. And it's the same for those not elected.
Because God is omniscient, He planned His conduct before the world even began, including who He will bring unto Christ and those who He will leave by their own sins.
Calvinism is fairly simple in that regard- it simply expresses God's sovereignty. I don't know why people have such a hard time with it.
Straight forward answers.
Thank you Sir Crucible.
Respect.
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Pollice Verso
New member
1. Yes, God elects who He chooses.
2. The Elect are only less reprobate than the Non-elect in the sense that God calls the Elect to salvation. Both the Elect and Non-elect are equally depraved and deserving of God's judgment without God's intervention.
3. God created the Non-elect.
4. Yes, God is omnipotent.
5. The eternal fate of the Non-elect is damnation.
6. Yes, a loving AND just Father brings children into the world who will suffer eternally, justly, because of their sinfulness.
Yes. God's Providence is the force which guides people to Christ.
A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved. It is because a person is not a reprobate that they ever come to God in the first place.
God, obviously, is the author of all life.
Yes. 'Omniscient' is the more academic interpretation, however, because omnipotence already goes without saying of a grand creator.
The non-elect are left to live and die by their sins.
Calvinism is not a rejection of free will, but an emphasizing of predestination. In the Reformed tradition, God's sovereignty rules interpretation, not the other way around.
A friend did ask me why blah blah matters a million years from now. I don't know what happened a million years ago. So if the bible speaks of punishment for infinity years then lets leave it to that. I believe goats will always be goats and the leapards still has the same skin.
I recognize arminian romanish like questions. Maybe you're not asking those. Too many arminian tricks on TOL and most of us recognize they get nowhere. They keep bickering. I haven't known you that well yet.
Dumb response
You have answered clear, and for this I respect you.
When you say suffer eternally, do you mean, eternal, conscious torture of the flesh as pictured in most ideas of hell?
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When you see lots of looping and broken records, you'll see a trick question somewhere.
I am no Arminian. I understand men trying to defend religious stances.
I believe God is All knowing and Ever and All Present.
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Very clearly answered. Thank you Crucible. Your courage is respected.
Do you believe in the eternal suffering of the flesh in the concept of hell that is widely embraced.
More clearly, do you believe in eternal, conscious torture of the damned?
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No trick. I want each person to state their full hand of cards without fear.
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Pollice Verso
New member
Possibly. I believe the "lake of fire" is a metaphor for eternal spiritual suffering apart from God. I'm not sure what the physical component entails.
You have recognized that God can do as He pleases, but left room for possible mercy.
I can see your recognition of the mercy of God, even to His enemies, in your words.
Respect.
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TB,
Sonnet is only expressing a desire to continue discussion and has cited that he still has questions for you that you haven't got back to yet.
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1 Peter 3:15
But honor the Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.
~ Is this not the core purpose of ToL?
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Tradition holds that eternal Hell is a reality which Jesus preached, and used Gehenna as metaphor much like the referring of ancient Rome as Babylon.
'Classical Hell' was a literal presumption which the Church put into doctrine, but the notion of a place of eternal punishment, in the general sense, is a dogma.
In the classical sense of Hell, it is place like Hinnom- it is a heap of fire and brimstone. But today, that has changed among many churches, including the Catholic Church itself actually who first put the doctrine into place.
It is now seen largely as a place commensurate to one's sins. Just as a person is called lesser or greater in Paradise, the degree of punishment in Hades is based on what one deserves.
But nonetheless, it is eternal and irreversible.