Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Stop avoiding the question and the Truth.

Answer the question here.

Where ANYWHERE in the Bible did God save an unbeliever?

Where ANYWHERE does God say He saves unbelievers?

Histrionics aside, perhaps you are thinking along these lines:

1. All lost hate God. Per Romans 1, they know He exists but have suppressed the truth for a lie due to their lack of proper moral reasoning that comes from their depravity. Hence, they do not believe what the world around them testifies to. We call the lost non-believers.

2. When by the ordinary means of hearing of the Good News these non-believers are regenerated, that is, quickened by the Holy Spirit, they are now morally able to believe (Exe. 36:26). Those so quickened will believe and repent. Here, faith and repentance are the immediate first-fruits of their regeneration.

So, given the above, one could say that these quickened persons are believers when they are saved. But what I have been trying to get across to you is that before their regeneration, these persons were non-believers and God saved them. Skipping that important step of regeneration, wherein the lost is made able to believe and be saved, is probably what leads to your confusion. The plain fact is that regneration, faith and repentance are instantaneous so it is a wee bit of straining to sort out the ordering. The Reformed see depravity of the lost in need of being repaired first, so regeneration must happen before these persons are then able to believe. This is the point of affirming that it is the non-believer that is being saved, albeit instantaneously. From that moment of belief the person is now aware of how terrible his state has been, and necessarily repents. Faith and repentance are basically two sides of one coin, for there is no true believer that is not believing and repenting.

If we say "believers only are saved", it makes no real sense, for the natural inclination is to wonder exactly why believers are in need of saving in the first place. So instead of your continued caterwauling, if the above has not soothed you, why not break down the logical sequences involved as you see them and make your position more plain?

AMR

 

[God's Truth]

GT,

A Calvinist is trying to explain the simplicity of the Gospel to you.

Perhaps God is indeed appreciative of your devotion, but be warned, every time I caught a case of Spiritual Pride, God brought on the Spiritual 2X4's.

Just saying, sometimes Love comes with correction from God.

I am a giant receiver of God's correction from all angles.

In the end, I know He's lovingly got you.

The hard Way is indeed a way.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[God's Truth]

Gentile Sinners that were way more sinful than you can imagine were saved the second Jesus said it is finished and the message hit the turf.

Unbelievers were ensnared by the reality that God made provision for them while they were unbelieving sinners of a kind you cannot begin to imagine!

In case you ever wondered what the phrase when in Rome means, study the culture of 1st century Rome!

Man oh man!

God even moved towards them out of Love, and spoiler alert, the early church was racked with the kinds of sin that would make your head explode.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

I am not following you. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Would you like to show the scripture that says God saves unbelievers?

 

[God's Truth]

Because you called me ignorant and believe I am following you around, I will leave you alone in agreement that the Beam in your eye is getting in the way of your removing AMR's speck.

A nice stance to take is that we all have Beams in our eye and shouldn't fixate on what we perceive to be specks in others eyes.

And I know, I jumped in and leaving with the word peace is kind of moot.

But alas,

Peace GT


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

All you were doing is standing up for the person I was going against. I want to debate the scriptures without you gaining up on me to merely give insults.

I had a beam in my eye and I got it out that is how I can help others to get the beam out of their eye.

 

[God's Truth]

Histrionics aside, perhaps you are thinking along these lines:

What is so hard about what I said? I said it plainly. I said show me the scripture that says God saves unbelievers. You just couldn't admit your denomination is wrong, you just had to give more scriptures that do not prove God saves unbelievers.

 

[God's Truth]

AMR,

Give the scripture that says God saves unbelievers.

 

[Eagles Wings]

Yes...

I just spoke it from my heart and how I lean on Jesus.

I don't like to lean on others words, because it damages my ability to share the gospel.

Are we making peace?

I apologize for saying you believe the Son to be created, as it appears you agree with the Nicene Creed.

 

[God's Truth]

2. When by the ordinary means of hearing of the Good News these non-believers are regenerated, that is, quickened by the Holy Spirit, they are now morally able to believe (Exe. 36:26). Those so quickened will believe and repent. Here, faith and repentance are the immediate first-fruits of their regeneration.

While I wait for AMR to come up with the scripture that says God saves unbelievers, I will speak about the erroneous things he did say.

NOWHERE ANYWHERE do the scriptures say what AMR says they say. NOWHERE anywhere does any scripture say that God quickens unbelievers to believe and repent.

You give a scripture about God sprinkling the people with clean water and cleaning them---that is about REPENTING OF SINS.

Ezekiel 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

You give scripture that says God will cleanse us---THAT IS ABOUT AFTER REPENTING OF OUR SINS.

Here is the PROOF:

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

Did you read that?

Why are they dying, AMR, why are they dying if God just cleans them even if they did not first repent?

That scripture says RID YOURSELVES of your sins AND THEN YOU WILL GET A NEW HEART.

 

[God's Truth]

So, given the above, one could say that these quickened persons are believers when they are saved. But what I have been trying to get across to you is that before their regeneration, these persons were non-believers and God saved them. Skipping that important step of regeneration, wherein the lost is made able to believe and be saved, is probably what leads to your confusion. The plain fact is that regneration, faith and repentance are instantaneous so it is a wee bit of straining to sort out the ordering. The Reformed see depravity of the lost in need of being repaired first, so regeneration must happen before these persons are then able to believe. This is the point of affirming that it is the non-believer that is being saved, albeit instantaneously. From that moment of belief the person is now aware of how terrible his state has been, and necessarily repents. Faith and repentance are basically two sides of one coin, for there is no true believer that is not believing and repenting.

God does NOT save unbelievers. God does not quicken or regenerate unbelievers.

Read this scripture about regeneration:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


The "Not by works of righteousness" are the PURIFICATION/CEREMONIAL works the people used to have to do to clean themselves. Now since Jesus' shed blood on the cross, he is the Sacrificial Lamb, and no one needs to do the righteous purification works any more, for all we have to do is have faith that Jesus' blood does this cleaning for us AFTER we repent of our sins.


The washing of regeneration...and the renewing of the Holy Spirit...that happens when we receive the Holy Spirit after we repent and are saved...we are WASHED, just as the scripture says. We are WASHED of our sins we repent of doing. We are washed when we are saved and that is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

Where are the scriptures that say God made a country of people who all obey and stop sinning? According to AMR it was done to UNBELIEVERS who did NOT have to repent first; but I see scriptures showing people have to obey and repent:

2 Kings 17:13
Yet the LORD warned Israel and Judah through all His prophets and every seer, saying, "Turn from your evil ways and keep My commandments, My statutes according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you through My servants the prophets."

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Isaiah 1:16
"Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil,

Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.

Isaiah 31:6
Return to Him from whom you have deeply defected, O sons of Israel.

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Isaiah 59:20
"A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.

Jeremiah 27:13
"Why will you die, you and your people, by the sword, famine and pestilence, as the LORD has spoken to that nation which will not serve the king of Babylon?

Ezekiel 11:19
"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[God's Truth]

If God saves UNBELIEVERS, why would we be warned to believe? The answer is simple, Calvinism is false.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

 

[God's Truth]

We do not have life first with Christ before believing; rather, we do not cross over to the body of Christ unless we believe.

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

You insist that we are part of the body of Christ first, before we can believe...


However, I easily prove you wrong.

 

[God's Truth]

We are NOT a part of Christ UNTIL we are given the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

...and, we do not get the Holy Spirit until after we believe first...


1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

I apologize for saying you believe the Son to be created, as it appears you agree with the Nicene Creed.

I apologize for being such a butt head to you.

I do believe we are officially reconciled to one another and before our loving Jesus. [emoji846]

Thank you Eagles Wings!!!!

You have been on my heart, and I wish I was more cool headed all of the time, but you taking the time to make things cool means so much to me.

Sincere and full of gratitude.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Sonnet]

When by the ordinary means of hearing of the Good News these non-believers are regenerated, that is, quickened by the Holy Spirit, they are now morally able to believe (Exe. 36:26).

37 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Once again I will yield to Israel’s plea and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

Those so quickened will believe and repent. Here, faith and repentance are the immediate first-fruits of their regeneration.

Where does scripture say that? Romans 12 and 1 Cor 12 refer to gifts and gal 5 fruits (faithfulness but not faith)).

Certainly though, Acts 7:51 implies prevenient grace.

 

[Sonnet]

I could deal with the OP over and over, and you would still sit there saying what you're saying.
Do you know why?
Because I have already dealt with the OP- over and over :doh:

Nearly eight days and yet you still haven't cited the post or posts where you 'vanquished the OP ten times over'.

 

[Sonnet]

Explicit order:

Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

@Sonnet

To keeep post length reasonable, here is part one in response to you...

Then follows his affirmation of the doctrine of election:
"The Westminster Confession’s Chapter 10 is even more poignant…”
It's noted that though only the elect are effectually called (his claim), the call still goes out to the non-elect. Now, of course, I reject this and would reaffirm that Romans 10:9 deals with the majority of those scriptures McMahan cites to substantiate his doctrine.

As the old judge’s saying somewhat goes, give me nine sentences of dialog and I can hang anybody. We can take one or two verses from Scripture to “prove” just about anything. But that is not how proper interpretative processes work when dealing with special revelation (the Bible). Appealing to Romans 10:9 as a defeater of particular saving grace requires proper argumentation that overcomes the full counsel of Scripture to the contrary.

Many take Romans 10:9 wrongly using sensus plenoir approach to salvation, as if in this life we should expect some macro level of deliverance from every ill besetting us before heaven. Instead, we must see that earthly deliverance points us toward spiritual deliverance. No one should dispute “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved” for this describes the remedy of the non-believer’s desperate situation before The Supreme Judge. In other words, Romans 10:9 is stating the promise of the Gospel.

A believer’s confession of faith implies three components, any one of which being found missing, is not saving faith: knowledge, assent, and trust. Using the chair as an analogy, we see these three components adding up to saving faith:

- I can know the chair is there, I can appreciate its workmanship, and its function.
- I can assent that the chair will support my weight, and that it will be comfortable.
- But until I rest my body upon the chair, I have not really trusted it to always hold me.

In the WCF Ch 10, as quoted by McMahon in the article we are discussing, we find a short summary of the teachings of the whole counsel of Scripture concerning the redemptive process of getting to that point of saving faith, wherein the promise of Romans 10:9 may be claimed. The words in the WCF do not come naked, rather these summaries can be supported by Scripture:

All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, (Rom. 8:30, Rom. 11:7, Eph. 1:10-11) by His word and Spirit, (2 Thess. 2:13-14, 2 Cor. 3:3,6)

out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; (Rom. 8:2, Eph. 2:1-5, 2 Tim. 1:9-10)

enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, (Acts 26:18, 1 Cor. 2:10,12, Eph. 1:17-18)

taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; (Ezek. 36:26)

renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, (Ezek. 11:19, Phil. 2:13, Deut. 30:6, Ezek. 36:27) and

effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: (Eph. 1:19, John 6:44-45)

yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace. (Song 1:4, Ps. 110:3, John 6:37, Rom. 6:16-18)

No non-believer can claim the promise of the Gospel (Romans 10:9) until they are brought out their state of spiritual death and have their minds enlightened, and their wills renewed. When that happens they will freely come in response to the call of the Gospel.

In response to:

All biblically thinking people agree that the Word of God is always involved in the conversion of anyone. No one who knows the Bible to some degree would say that men could be saved without the Word of God, and of some knowledge of it. Only heretics say that men can be saved without the Word of God.

I would only suggest that this need not come only in the form of a preacher since there are many examples of God communicating directly - and Acts 7:51 suggests prevenient grace for all.

The irresistible grace view of Reformed theology is something of a misnomer. Irresistible grace does not mean that we are incapable of resisting the grace of God for we do so each and every day. Rather what is meant by irresistible grace when speaking about conversion (the salvific process) is that despite our resistance, the power of the Holy Spirit vanquishes our sinful rejection of Christ and gives us ears to hear and hearts to embrace Him. However, in Acts 7:51 that was not the response of those present, which is why Stephen said, “You always resist the Holy Spirit.”

In any large worship setting, it is virtually inevitable that among the number present there are some who are not true believers. Three verses later (Acts 7:54) we see this in plain evidence. The Romanist notion of prevenient grace is not being taught here, rather the teaching is how the non-believer will always resist the Spirit prior to regeneration.

I agree with McMahon that 'General Revelation is insufficient to save anyone' though Romans 1 does affirm a confirmation of the existence of God.

McMahon seems to suggest that some men are beyond saving because:

"The pagan nations had created a form of religion stemming from their debased minds. However, the true religion of God, found only in the Word of God and the Gospel, had not been in their grasp. "

This I reject reaffirming prevenient grace as stated above.

You are affirming something not established. Further I have no idea how you are using the term prevenient grace. The Wesleyans use it to mean something like the term common grace is used by Calvinists. The important distinction, however, is that Calvinists never claim common grace can lead to salvation. For the Calvinist, common grace functions to restrain evil in the world but does not lead non-believers to faith. The distinctive aspect of prevenient grace among Romanists and Wesleyans is that it is assumed to provide the ability to choose salvation, an ability that was surrendered by Adam's sin.

The Apostle Paul teaches that all human beings are born with a corrupt nature inherited from Adam (see Rom. 5:12-19). Without specifying the precise connection between Adam's sin and our condemnation—which is itself the subject of a long theological controversy—it is clear from the text that we are sinners because of Adam's sin. Through Adam's sin we died (Rom. 5:15, 17), are condemned (Rom. 5:16,18), and are constituted as sinners (Rom. 5:19).

Harmonizing with this portrait of humanity in Romans 5 is Ephesians 2:3, which says we are by nature "objects of wrath." Human beings by nature (physei) are deserving of wrath, indicating that they are all born with a nature that is sinful. The near context in Ephesians 2 confirms the depth of human depravity. Human beings are "dead in transgressions and sins" (Eph. 2:1; 2:5 and Col. 2:13). The deadness of fallen humanity indicates that we are devoid of life upon our entrance into the world. We have no inclination toward genuine righteousness or goodness. Paul proceeds to say in Ephesians 2:2-3 that we lived under the sway of the world, the devil, and the flesh before conversion.

More to come...

AMR

 

[Cross Reference]

@Sonnet


Harmonizing with this portrait of humanity in Romans 5 is Ephesians 2:3, which says we are by nature "objects of wrath." Human beings by nature (physei) are deserving of wrath, indicating that they are all born with a nature that is sinful. The near context in Ephesians 2 confirms the depth of human depravity. Human beings are "dead in transgressions and sins" (Eph. 2:1; 2:5 and Col. 2:13). The deadness of fallen humanity indicates that we are devoid of life upon our entrance into the world. We have no inclination toward genuine righteousness or goodness. Paul proceeds to say in Ephesians 2:2-3 that we lived under the sway of the world, the devil, and the flesh before conversion.

More to come...

AMR

Thanks for the "headsup" <groan>. I believe you are very shallow in your understanding of what Paul was trying to convey re mans sinful nature because of your doctrine of cessation.

AMR, I think you believe you no longer need this. What say you . . to me?:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." John 16:13-14 (KJV)

 

[TulipBee]

WE KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE!
Rom 8:33-34: Who shall bring anything to charge against the elect (...) who is the one condemning (...)
Rom 8:1: There is no condemnation for those in Christ.
It follows: The elect are those in Christ.
As we also read in Eph 1:4: God has chosen us IN HIM (Christ).
And who are those in Christ? 2Cor 5:17 tells us who: Born again believers.
THE ELECT ARE THOSE IN CHRIST - BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS