Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

[Cross Reference]

THE ELECT ARE THOSE IN CHRIST - BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS

Who continue faithfully in their relationship with God by Jesus Christ.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Who continue faithfully in their relationship with God by Jesus Christ.

Yes brother we have that responsibility placed on us. That choice to, "... walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:4

We must choose to continue to follow Christ and His Spirit.

We don't want to be those who received "grace in vain". 2 Corinthians 6:1

 

[TulipBee]

Who continue faithfully in their relationship with God by Jesus Christ.

There is no one who claims to be a Christian who does not like to quote Romans 8:28. It does not matter how heretical they are about Jesus and salvation.
Here is the verse*[[Rom 8:28]] KJV* And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
We all want things to workout for our good. But there is a problem. The majority of the people who quote this verse hate the doctrine of predestination.
Many professing Christians abhor God's predestining will and some even call it an evil doctrine. And yet they will not stop quoting Romans 8:28.
Listen to me someone. Romans 8 :28 does not stand on its own and does not end there. Listen to this, *[[Rom 8:29-30/KJV]]* For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
According to the subsequent verses (29&30) all things workout for good only because God predestined them. And so if you hate predestination you are an unbeliever of God's word.
And the good is not that you will have money to go on vacation or pay your bills. Far from the context and argument. The good is that all those who are foreloved and called will be justified, glorified and be conformed to the image of Christ.
And so the trials and circumstances of life are to the end that Christ may be formed in those who are the called-the elect.
Also, all things do not work out fr good fr everyone. It does not work out for the good of unbelievers.
Because the good is defined in salvation terms and not in bank account terms. And you cannot go to unbelievers who are in trouble and say all things will work out fr their good. May be they will if they are the elect. But see that this message is only for those who are elect , justified and being conformed to the image of Christ.
Conclusion. Without predestination there is no salvation and we all would be miserable. And another thing, a professing Christian who hates predestination may still need a new birth. *[[Joh 3:3]] KJV* Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Amen
Amen

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

We are NOT a part of Christ UNTIL we are given the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

...and, we do not get the Holy Spirit until after we believe first...


1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.

Romans 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

GT,

I have opened up a thread to you and all. To take traffic off of this thread of Sonnet's that is unrelated to his OP. http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...r-GT-to-Debate-(The-entire-book-of-Galatians).

It will be a 5 part debate with me about faith vs. obedience.

I have set fair rules for any who participate and I have begun the debate with my first response. The ball is now in your court.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes brother we have that responsibility placed on us. That choice to, "... walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:4

We must choose to continue to follow Christ and His Spirit.

We don't want to be those who received "grace in vain". 2 Corinthians 6:1

Amen! Jesus did it that way and we are given to follow Him in like fashion..

 

[Sonnet]

There is no one who claims to be a Christian who does not like to quote Romans 8:28. It does not matter how heretical they are about Jesus and salvation.
Here is the verse*[[Rom 8:28]] KJV* And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
We all want things to workout for our good. But there is a problem. The majority of the people who quote this verse hate the doctrine of predestination.
Many professing Christians abhor God's predestining will and some even call it an evil doctrine. And yet they will not stop quoting Romans 8:28.
Listen to me someone. Romans 8 :28 does not stand on its own and does not end there. Listen to this, *[[Rom 8:29-30/KJV]]* For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
According to the subsequent verses (29&30) all things workout for good only because God predestined them. And so if you hate predestination you are an unbeliever of God's word.
And the good is not that you will have money to go on vacation or pay your bills. Far from the context and argument. The good is that all those who are foreloved and called will be justified, glorified and be conformed to the image of Christ.
And so the trials and circumstances of life are to the end that Christ may be formed in those who are the called-the elect.
Also, all things do not work out fr good fr everyone. It does not work out for the good of unbelievers.
Because the good is defined in salvation terms and not in bank account terms. And you cannot go to unbelievers who are in trouble and say all things will work out fr their good. May be they will if they are the elect. But see that this message is only for those who are elect , justified and being conformed to the image of Christ.
Conclusion. Without predestination there is no salvation and we all would be miserable. And another thing, a professing Christian who hates predestination may still need a new birth. *[[Joh 3:3]] KJV* Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Amen
Amen

The predestination is in being conformed to the image of Christ - just as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5 ('adoption to sonship'). It's those 'foreknown' (different word to predestined - and we know Paul wouldn't engage in tautology) that are predestined to such conforming. Those predestined, called, justified and glorified are those foreknown.

Nothing precludes inferring that those foreknown are those God has always known (outside of time of course) would exercise faith.

 

[Cross Reference]

There is no one who claims to be a Christian who does not like to quote Romans 8:28. It does not matter how heretical they are about Jesus and salvation.
Here is the verse*[[Rom 8:28]] KJV* And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
We all want things to workout for our good. But there is a problem. The majority of the people who quote this verse hate the doctrine of predestination.
Many professing Christians abhor God's predestining will and some even call it an evil doctrine. And yet they will not stop quoting Romans 8:28.
Listen to me someone. Romans 8 :28 does not stand on its own and does not end there. Listen to this, *[[Rom 8:29-30/KJV]]* For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
According to the subsequent verses (29&30) all things workout for good only because God predestined them. And so if you hate predestination you are an unbeliever of God's word.
And the good is not that you will have money to go on vacation or pay your bills. Far from the context and argument. The good is that all those who are foreloved and called will be justified, glorified and be conformed to the image of Christ.
And so the trials and circumstances of life are to the end that Christ may be formed in those who are the called-the elect.
Also, all things do not work out fr good fr everyone. It does not work out for the good of unbelievers.
Because the good is defined in salvation terms and not in bank account terms. And you cannot go to unbelievers who are in trouble and say all things will work out fr their good. May be they will if they are the elect. But see that this message is only for those who are elect , justified and being conformed to the image of Christ.
Conclusion. Without predestination there is no salvation and we all would be miserable. And another thing, a professing Christian who hates predestination may still need a new birth. *[[Joh 3:3]] KJV* Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Amen
Amen

I take it then you know you have had spiritual intercourse with God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent before you were born? I mean,, you know that you have from what you declare about predestination, isn't that right?

 

[Sonnet]

Many take Romans 10:9 wrongly using sensus plenoir approach to salvation, as if in this life we should expect some macro level of deliverance from every ill besetting us before heaven. Instead, we must see that earthly deliverance points us toward spiritual deliverance. No one should dispute “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved” for this describes the remedy of the non-believer’s desperate situation before The Supreme Judge. In other words, Romans 10:9 is stating the promise of the Gospel.

But we can't ignore the context of Romans 10:9. Paul explicitly states the reason for their (his kinsmen's) unsaved state - that they sought to establish their own righteousness. What he does not do - but could have done if it were the case - is affirm election/reprobation. On the contrary, he actually emphasises the notion that all may saved by quoting from Deuteronomy 30. Moses says there (vv. 11-20):

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

A believer’s confession of faith implies three components, any one of which being found missing, is not saving faith: knowledge, assent, and trust. Using the chair as an analogy, we see these three components adding up to saving faith:

- I can know the chair is there, I can appreciate its workmanship, and its function.
- I can assent that the chair will support my weight, and that it will be comfortable.
- But until I rest my body upon the chair, I have not really trusted it to always hold me.

In the WCF Ch 10, as quoted by McMahon in the article we are discussing, we find a short summary of the teachings of the whole counsel of Scripture concerning the redemptive process of getting to that point of saving faith, wherein the promise of Romans 10:9 may be claimed. The words in the WCF do not come naked, rather these summaries can be supported by Scripture:

All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, (Rom. 8:30, Rom. 11:7, Eph. 1:10-11) by His word and Spirit, (2 Thess. 2:13-14, 2 Cor. 3:3,6)

Regarding Romans 8:28-30 - the predestination is in being conformed to the image of Christ - just as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5 ('adoption to sonship'). It's those 'foreknown' (different word to predestined - and we know Paul wouldn't engage in tautology) that are predestined to such conforming. Those predestined, called, justified and glorified are those foreknown.

Nothing precludes inferring that those foreknown are those God has always known (outside of time of course) would exercise faith.

Romans 11:7 - would be a reference to those reserved in v.4 and it explicitly states that they would not bow the knee to Baal.

Eph. 1:10-11 - the predestination is stated in v.5 - adoption to sonship, and it's 'us in him' who are thus predestined.

2 Thess. 2:13-14 - 'saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.'

2 Cor. 3:3,6 - not sure why you have cited these scriptures.

out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; (Rom. 8:2, Eph. 2:1-5, 2 Tim. 1:9-10)

Ok.

enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, (Acts 26:18, 1 Cor. 2:10,12, Eph. 1:17-18)

Don't know why you cite the first and last. The Corinthians one is a message for the mature in Christ.

taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; (Ezek. 36:26)

37 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Once again I will yield to Israel’s plea and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, (Ezek. 11:19, Phil. 2:13, Deut. 30:6, Ezek. 36:27) and

Ezekiel 11:19 - why stop there?

v.20
But as for those whose hearts are devoted to their vile images and detestable idols, I will bring down on their own heads what they have done, declares the Sovereign Lord.

Deut. 30:6 - have already cited vv.11ff.

Ezek. 36:27 - '...I will yield to Israel’s plea...' Indeed.

effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: (Eph. 1:19, John 6:44-45)

Eph. 1:19 - why have you cited this?

John 6:44-45
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace[/I]. (Song 1:4, Ps. 110:3, John 6:37, Rom. 6:16-18)

Certainly we must come freely.

The irresistible grace view of Reformed theology is something of a misnomer. Irresistible grace does not mean that we are incapable of resisting the grace of God for we do so each and every day. Rather what is meant by irresistible grace when speaking about conversion (the salvific process) is that despite our resistance, the power of the Holy Spirit vanquishes our sinful rejection of Christ and gives us ears to hear and hearts to embrace Him. However, in Acts 7:51 that was not the response of those present, which is why Stephen said, “You always resist the Holy Spirit.”

Judas was told by Jesus:

Matthew 13:10-17
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

In any large worship setting, it is virtually inevitable that among the number present there are some who are not true believers. Three verses later (Acts 7:54) we see this in plain evidence. The Romanist notion of prevenient grace is not being taught here, rather the teaching is how the non-believer will always resist the Spirit prior to regeneration.

I think Stephen is referring to the leaders: 'Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute?'

You are affirming something not established. Further I have no idea how you are using the term prevenient grace. The Wesleyans use it to mean something like the term common grace is used by Calvinists. The important distinction, however, is that Calvinists never claim common grace can lead to salvation. For the Calvinist, common grace functions to restrain evil in the world but does not lead non-believers to faith. The distinctive aspect of prevenient grace among Romanists and Wesleyans is that it is assumed to provide the ability to choose salvation, an ability that was surrendered by Adam's sin.

But you haven't proven that the Holy Spirit, which you admit is resisted and so does act on all, cannot synergistically lead to faith.

The Apostle Paul teaches that all human beings are born with a corrupt nature inherited from Adam (see Rom. 5:12-19). Without specifying the precise connection between Adam's sin and our condemnation—which is itself the subject of a long theological controversy—it is clear from the text that we are sinners because of Adam's sin. Through Adam's sin we died (Rom. 5:15, 17), are condemned (Rom. 5:16,18), and are constituted as sinners (Rom. 5:19).

Yes, we are all horrible sinners.

Harmonizing with this portrait of humanity in Romans 5 is Ephesians 2:3, which says we are by nature "objects of wrath." Human beings by nature (physei) are deserving of wrath, indicating that they are all born with a nature that is sinful. The near context in Ephesians 2 confirms the depth of human depravity. Human beings are "dead in transgressions and sins" (Eph. 2:1; 2:5 and Col. 2:13). The deadness of fallen humanity indicates that we are devoid of life upon our entrance into the world. We have no inclination toward genuine righteousness or goodness. Paul proceeds to say in Ephesians 2:2-3 that we lived under the sway of the world, the devil, and the flesh before conversion.

Yep - but if faith is morally neutral then we need not be concerned about having to be good in order to do so (have faith).

More to come...

AMR

Ok.

Appealing to Romans 10:9 as a defeater of particular saving grace requires proper argumentation that overcomes the full counsel of Scripture to the contrary.

That verse, in mentioning the resurrection, is directly linked with Christ's crucifixion which scripture explicitly states was for all men.

1 John 2:2, John 1:29, John 3:14-16, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 2:4-6, Titus 2:11

 

[Cross Reference]

This interpretation has been given us to understand and except:

By AMR:
Through Adam's sin we died (Rom. 5:15, 17), are condemned (Rom. 5:16,18), and are constituted as sinners (Rom. 5:19).

What is the truth is because of Adam's transgression mankind was condemned to live out his life APART from something [intimacy with God] and not unto something [hell fire and damnation]. However, the "unto something" was an automatic because God had no choice, man could never die, his soul being immortal and had to reside somewhere when he did leave the land of the living.. By Adam's transgression mankind's privilege of standing in the in the presence of God, by necessity, was revoked lest he die by it.. Where mankind would take up his residence would be determined by hs righteousness unto God. We know that place to have been paradise, the abode of the righteous dead. . . Jesus set the captives free.

 

[Cross Reference]

That verse, in mentioning the resurrection, is directly linked with Christ's crucifixion which scripture explicitly states was for all men.

1 John 2:2, John 1:29, John 3:14-16, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 2:4-6, Titus 2:11

What puzzles me is what they believe they will lose out on in God by not seeing God and Jesus in a contrary way to their religion? Do they believe other studious Christians have no part in God unless they are first of Calvin??

This from someone these folk on this forum, I doubt, ever read:

"Till we all come … unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ". Eph. 4:13.

Rehabilitation means the putting back of the whole human race into the relationship God designed it to be in, and this is what Jesus Christ did in Redemption. The Church ceases to be a spiritual society when it is on the look-out for the development of its own organization. The rehabilitation of the human race on Jesus Christ’s plan means the realization of Jesus Christ in corporate life as well as in individual life. Jesus Christ sent apostles and teachers for this purpose—that the corporate Personality might be realized. We are not here to develop a spiritual life of our own, or to enjoy spiritual retirement; we are here so to realize Jesus Christ that the Body of Christ may be built up.

Am I building up the Body of Christ, or am I looking for my own personal development only? The essential thing is my personal relationship to Jesus Christ—“That I may know Him.“ To fulfil God’s design means entire abandonment to him. Whenever I want things for myself, the relationship is distorted. It will be a big humiliation to realize that I have not been concerned about realizing Jesus Christ, but only about realizing what He has done for me.

‘My goal is God Himself, not joy nor peace,
Nor even blessing, but Himself, my God.’

Am I measuring my life by this standard or by anything less? . . . . [like, Calvin/Arminius?]

[Emphasis mine]

 

[God's Truth]

GT,

I have opened up a thread to you and all. To take traffic off of this thread of Sonnet's that is unrelated to his OP. http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...r-GT-to-Debate-(The-entire-book-of-Galatians).

It will be a 5 part debate with me about faith vs. obedience.

I have set fair rules for any who participate and I have begun the debate with my first response. The ball is now in your court.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

I haven't said anything unrelated to this thread.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

@Sonnet

The remainder of my response, began earlier here now follows...

McMohan's citation of Calvin's use of John 3:3 regarding the knowledge required to know Jesus Christ is confusing. Yes, knowledge is required - but why quote that scripture?

McMahan rightly notes that being born again implies knowledge, assent, and trust, the three components of true faith.

To withhold salvation from some is not perceived as something good - which is why the Calvinist Gospel has no power.

All mankind fell in Adam, just as if we were really there with him. Salvation is not obligatory upon God. That God saves even one person should have us all praising Him, for no one deserves His mercy.
You are confusing God’s foreknowledge with causation. God's decree does not take away man's liberty, rather it is His decree that establishes said liberty. In the fall Adam freely exercised the natural inclinations of his will.

Then follows the section I previously posted to you:

Many ancient writers believed that 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 was a very well defined summation of the Gospel. As John Owen’s states in his Christologia, “This is the substance of the Gospel, as it is declared by the apostle, 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.” Such a sublime summary is seen in that text, “Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Such is the sum and substance of our Gospel message both stated and preached.

Now, I ask you again AMR - do you preach this to the unsaved? It contains 'For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us...'

What you fail to understand is that the passage (2 Corinthians 5:18-21) is not a teleprompter text. The “us” in these and all passages similarly, are the believing ones. Parse it out.

“Now then, we (believing ministers) are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us (believing ministers): we (believing ministers) implore you (the unreconciled, the non-believer) on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us (believing ministers), that we (believing ministers) might become the righteousness of God in Him.”​

In other words, the sum and substance of the Gospel proclaims that Our Lord’s sacrifice for all believers is available to any non-believer that wants to be reconciled to God, for all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and not lost to Him.

McMahon goes on to refer to several other theologians:

Spurgeon:

“I have always considered, with Luther and Calvin, that the sum and substance of the Gospel lies in that word Substitution, — Christ standing in the stead of man. If I understand the Gospel, it is this: I deserve to be lost for ever; the only reason why I should not be damned is, that Christ was punished in my stead, and there is no need to execute a sentence twice for sin."

The last clause implies limited atonement and election but it isn't substantiated and, in any case, we know that he affirms that the 'all people' of 1 Timothy 2:3,4 is indeed all and so the 'all' of v.6 ('who gave himself as a ransom for all people') must carry the same meaning.

So when the quote agrees with your presupposition in part, but not everywhere, it is sufficient to use it as a lever to interpret subsequent Scripture? :AMR: Who or where is the affirmation you speak about in 1 Timothy?

McMahon now turns his attention to regeneration. Jonathan Edwards speaks of regeneration as being the moment of moving from 'lostness' to 'savedness'. It's curious that McMahon writes:

"Active receiving is an elicited act of faith in which he who is called now wholly leans upon Christ as his saviour and through Christ upon God. John 3:15-16."

Verse 15 is linked directly to verse 14 and explicitly affirms, by analogy, that all men are provided for. There is no mention of regeneration.

Try to imagine vividly what Nicodemus is hearing. Jesus is claiming the title of the Son of Man, the judgment title that the Ancient of Days gives him to judge and with sovereign dominion and power over all nations, tribes and people. The mere act of lifting up the Son of Man in public view does not save the world. Only those who believe are saved. Only those who have the capacity of believing can be saved. And they must, will, look to the Son of Man lifted up and believe on him to have everlasting life.

He affirms that, 'justification by faith alone is simultaneous with regeneration'. McMahon doesn't provide any proof of regeneration as defined by Calvinism. Why quote John 6:45, Acts 16:14, Ephesians 1:17:

"It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—"

One must hear and learn so it's conditional.

Yes, one must hear. The issue of regeneration is the giving of ears to hear.

"One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul."
Lydia was already a worshiper of God.

"that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,"

To whom is Paul refering?

v.15
"For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people,"

Lydia was a worshipper in the sense of ritualism, as were and are all non-regenerated Jews.

Under the heading 'The Golden Chain' he again refers to John 3 as if it somehow holds any proof for it (the Golden Chain) - but none is given.

The article in question is not a thorough treatment of every point of doctrine. If you want such a treatment, read and study this:
https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/systematic-theology-louis-berkhof

McMahon affirms 1 Corinthians 15 to be the Gospel. Crucially, he does not warn against the preaching of v.3 to the unsaved, so it remains curious that you ever cited his work in order that I might have a deeper understanding of the Gospel. Your assertion regarding 1 Corinthians 15 - that 'one or two verses does not a gospel make' - isn't shared by the very document you cite to prove your point.

No one disputes the passage contains the substance of the Gospel. It was a summary offered up by believers to an audience of predominantly believers. So, a pastor behind the pulpit, with members present in the pews may say, speaking in the large, that Our Lord died for us. My issue has always been to say to unbeliever Bob in a conversation about that Gospel, “Bob, Jesus Christ died for you” is to speak infelicitously at best, erroneously at worst, as I do not know the secret will of God for Bob. I am happy and commanded to tell Bob that if he will call upon the name of the Lord he will be saved and never lost to the Lord. To say or imply more than that about Bob specifically is to claim to know more than we have warrant to know (Deut. 29:29).

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Stop avoiding the question and the Truth.

Answer the question here.

Done and done.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-reprobation&p=4758021&viewfull=1#post4758021

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-reprobation&p=4758272&viewfull=1#post4758272

Just because you do not like the answer is no excuse to claim you have not been given an answer. When you can deal with the response given in a substantive manner, perhaps further discussion will ensue. Until then, all you are doing is whining and merely asserting accompanied by Rumpelstiltskin level hissy fits. :AMR:

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

While I wait for AMR to come up with the scripture that says God saves unbelievers, I will speak about the erroneous things he did say.

NOWHERE ANYWHERE do the scriptures say what AMR says they say. NOWHERE anywhere does any scripture say that God quickens unbelievers to believe and repent.

You give a scripture about God sprinkling the people with clean water and cleaning them---that is about REPENTING OF SINS.

No. Repentance and faith are but two sides of one coin that follow regeneration (re-birth).

Ezekiel 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

See the next verse Eze. 36:26. Until that regeneration happens no one will repent or have faith, for they are quite morally unable to do so.

You give scripture that says God will cleanse us---THAT IS ABOUT AFTER REPENTING OF OUR SINS.

Here is the PROOF:

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

Did you read that?

Why are they dying, AMR, why are they dying if God just cleans them even if they did not first repent?

That scripture says RID YOURSELVES of your sins AND THEN YOU WILL GET A NEW HEART.

The passage is the promiscuous claim of the duty of all persons, irrespective of their actual moral ability to do so. That moral ability requires God act first, Eze. 36:26, and then comes the proper fruits of this regeneration: faith and repentance. All fallen in Adam are not absolved of their duty to obedience to God. The fact some do not do their duty only confirms the righteousness of their ultimate judgment by God and their terrible eternal destiny.

AMR

 

[God's Truth]

Just because you do not like the answer is no excuse to claim you have not been given an answer. When you can deal with the response given in a substantive manner, perhaps further discussion will ensue. Until then, all you are doing is whining and merely asserting accompanied by Rumpelstiltskin level hissy fits.

Don't use links. Just repeat yourself if you have to, or explain again more carefully, or clarify, just don't use links.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

37 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Once again I will yield to Israel’s plea and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

This is related to the calling out of a people, the Jews, to be a witness to the One True God. This has nothing to do with salvific regeneration.

Where does scripture say that? Romans 12 and 1 Cor 12 refer to gifts and gal 5 fruits (faithfulness but not faith)).

Certainly though, Acts 7:51 implies prevenient grace.

Re-read my response as relates to what saving faith comprises: trust, knowledge, assent. If you want to claim prevenient grace exists in fallen man, then you are taking sides with the Romanist and the Arminians who claim libertarian free will and therefore prevenient grace. I have provided much in writing that examines these views and why they are not sustainable from Scripture. If you are unable to grant the plain fact that all fallen in Adam possess no moral ability to choose wisely (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph, 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14) until God quickens them from their state of spiritual death, the discussion will go in circles. Fallen man can only sin more or sin less, not able to not sin. All are born sinners and sin because they are sinners. They are not sinners because they sin and were somehow morally neutral before they sinned.

See also:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4661173&viewfull=1#post4661173

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Thanks for the "headsup" <groan>. I believe you are very shallow in your understanding of what Paul was trying to convey re mans sinful nature because of your doctrine of cessation.

You are all over the map, moving the goal posts as you proceed.

On cessationism, see:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...oys-God-quot&p=4388138&viewfull=1#post4388138


AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Nothing precludes inferring that those foreknown are those God has always known (outside of time of course) would exercise faith.

This makes God to be a debtor to the decisions of His creatures, a contingent God that Scripture plainly denies.

Persons can exercise genuine freedom in their choices, that is to choose according to their greatest inclinations, but even when doing so there are still causal conditions (e.g., character, experiences, circumstances, etc.) which decisively incline the will to respond a certain way without indeed constraining it. The causal conditions are sufficiently strong to get the person to choose a certain option such that there are now some guarantees how the individual will freely respond, yet the person was acting according to their own wishes or desires, i.e. “without constraint[/u].” This is also known as consequent necessity. Let me explain this last part with an example:

Necessity of a hypothetical inference...
If God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter cannot refrain from sinning. (Incorrect)

The interpretation above wrongly interprets God's foreknowledge as impinging upon Peter's moral free agency. The proper understanding is:

The necessity of the consequent of the hypothetical...
Necessarily, if God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter does not refrain from sinning. (Correct)

In other words, the actions of moral free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, the actions are foreseen because the actions are certain to take place.

As for sinful acts, while God decrees the circumstances in which we let ourselves become tempted and fall into sin, God neither tempts us nor empowers us to do evil, nor does God’s decree. Like everything we do, we do these acts in concert with our desires, and thus we do them freely (in the compatibilist sense), and what one does freely is something for which one is culpable.

AMR

 

[God's Truth]

No.

Yes.

Repentance and faith are but two sides of one coin that follow regeneration (re-birth).

Nowhere does God say He saves unbelievers.

See the next verse Eze. 36:26. Until that regeneration happens no one will repent or have faith, for they are quite morally unable to do so.

That scripture does not say that.

The passage is the promiscuous claim of the duty of all persons, irrespective of their actual moral ability to do so. That moral ability requires God act first, Eze. 36:26, and then comes the proper fruits of this regeneration: faith and repentance. All fallen in Adam are not absolved of their duty to obedience to God. The fact some do not do their duty only confirms the righteousness of their ultimate judgment by God and their terrible eternal destiny.

You can't get away from this scripture,

Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Don't use links. Just repeat yourself if you have to, or explain again more carefully, or clarify, just don't use links.

Do not be lazy. The links are to my posts in this thread. Why should anyone have to re-post again and again?

AMR