ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
musterion said:
Your infants have no choice because they have no will yet. It's imposed on them yet you give it magical powers, like salt in the mouth.
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The Lord gives baptism quote-unquote magical powers, not the Church. The Church teaches the truth, she don't make things up. Besides, more than half of all Christendom practices infant baptism, and many baptized as infants go on to become obviously good Christians, in spite of having "no will yet" when baptized.
musterion said:
Your converts have to work to be in fellowship you by submitting to your water baptism, if they've not received some water baptism elsewhere than you'll accept.
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As if that's a big deal. If you believe in Christ and you reject water baptism and taking communion as wrong, there's nothing preventing you from being a member, however imperfectly united, of the Body of Christ. If you read the teaching on baptism you will see how the Church goes to great lengths to explain how legitimate extenuating circumstances will not preclude an unbaptized person from Church membership and their soul's salvation. Reading between the lines, there's nothing preventing plain misunderstanding and misguided stubbornness being such an extenuating circumstance, as we would expect it to be.

And the Catholic Church is Jesus' family, and like any family there are social norms and mores. They practice the age-old Family traditions, and they hold fast to those things that are eternal and not just things that can be judiciously changed like Church disciplines like clerical celibacy. At any time the Church can decide to open up the potential field of priests to married men, but the Church is never going to give up water baptism and celebrating the Eucharist, as those things are not only certified genuine Apostolic but they are also plainly taught in Scripture by the Lord Himself.
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
musterion said:
The main problem with LS is that it requires unbiblical work of both the potential convert (to make sure they're repentant per the usual misdefinition) and of the believer to make sure he/she really did repent. It all goes back to trying to ascertain the impossible: that one really is of The Elect and not a false convert. It was invented to address the insecurity and doubt that has plagued Augustinians since the start.
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I think it was invented by a certain type, who wants to tie together saving faith with something they can see in others and judge in others and control in others, like behavior. I think it's a spiritually immature position, and there are many Catholic clerics, including Pope Francis, who teach in broad strokes very much against it.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
musterion said:
The main problem with LS is that it requires unbiblical work of both the potential convert (to make sure they're repentant per the usual misdefinition) and of the believer to make sure he/she really did repent. It all goes back to trying to ascertain the impossible: that one really is of The Elect and not a false convert. It was invented to address the insecurity and doubt that has plagued Augustinians since the start.
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Whenever LS stands for introspection rather than trust in Him and His work, I share your concern and conviction.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Lon said:
Whenever LS stands for introspection rather than trust in Him and His work, I share your concern and conviction.
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Look into it if you're not convinced: LS serves one primary purpose -- to provide "evidence" to help convince someone he's actually Elect, thus saved.

Which means "faith alone" isn't really what it's about anymore, if it ever actually was.
 
J

jsanford108

New member
musterion said:
Today, it's (at best) meaningless and a waste of time. At worst, it's part of a false gospel of works if anyone believes it merits anything with God. Which 99% do whether they admit it or not.
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Okay. I just wanted to make sure you didn't hold a contradictory view, honestly.

I hold that it isn't meaningless. You seem to view that it is. The only question I would pose at this point is, why did Jesus get baptized?


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musterion

musterion

Well-known member
jsanford108 said:
Okay. I just wanted to make sure you didn't hold a contradictory view, honestly.

I hold that it isn't meaningless. You seem to view that it is. The only question I would pose at this point is, why did Jesus get baptized?
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You know the answer to that already.

The real question is, why did YOU get water baptized/why do YOU believe all people must be water baptized?
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
musterion said:
Look into it if you're not convinced: LS serves one primary purpose -- to provide "evidence" to help convince someone he's actually Elect, thus saved.

Which means "faith alone" isn't really what it's about anymore, if it ever actually was.
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I had this conversation concerning MacArthur in my own church. I recommended Zane Hodges' "Absolutely Free."

Our Salvation is found in no one else, or no thing else than Grace through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. He is able to save to the uttermost. Hebrews 7:25
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
jsanford108 said:
Okay. I just wanted to make sure you didn't hold a contradictory view, honestly.

I hold that it isn't meaningless. You seem to view that it is. The only question I would pose at this point is, why did Jesus get baptized?
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Because He was a member of the nation of Israel and therefore under the law of Moses.

Gal 4:4-5 (KJV)​
(4:4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (4:5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

​
Rom 15:8 (KJV)​
(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

​
Matt 15:24 (KJV)​
(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ​

It's not that hard to understand.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
musterion said:
Wait.

I thought you are Calvinistic...ish?

Very familiar with Hodges and GES.
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I'm not hung up on the label. I think it best fits my view and understanding, but such is rather a place to start in discussion. I tend to turn things around. In this case, the Lord Jesus Christ owns me. He is my Lord. I bank on Ephesians 2:10 That God is arranging for things for my new nature, and an active Guide and captain of me as His vessel (You are not your own, you were bought at a great price). Hebrews 12 guarantees that those who are His are for the woodshed if they don't move His direction and are disobedient. He being Lord, means we have little choice. It is why I agree with Hodge on this point. One way or the other, my knee will bow. If I am saved, it will be willingly. If not, I would, as an unbeliever, find my knee bending for me because He is owner of those knees. All we believers call Him Lord. The great test of Hebrews 12 is that if God doesn't discipline us, we aren't His. I take comfort then, that He is Lord and agree that He is, against MacArthur's assertion.

As a new creation: He is Lord. In an unsaved state, He is Lord.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
musterion said:
Look into it if you're not convinced: LS serves one primary purpose -- to provide "evidence" to help convince someone he's actually Elect, thus saved.

Which means "faith alone" isn't really what it's about anymore, if it ever actually was.
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As a movement, if that's what you mean, I'd agree with you. But as a concept, LS expresses the purpose of God in salvation--since we die when we DON'T follow God's commands, and there's no death in the resurrection, God's purpose is to impute Jesus' righteousness to us so that we will be accounted as having (doing?) LS. If God isn't Lord of your life, how saved are you? Is "faith" the thing it's about, or is acknowledging that the Lord is really Lord the thing.

I'd have to say that faith is the means--the means to fully obeying, as Abraham showed he was willing to do, and the means to having our sin debt paid--but not the end. Faith without the sacrifice of Christ is worthless. Christ was all about about doing what the Father told Him to do. Thus, Lordship Salvation is exactly what God is offering--and providing through the obedience of Christ.
 
J

jsanford108

New member
musterion said:
You know the answer to that already.

The real question is, why did YOU get water baptized/why do YOU believe all people must be water baptized?
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What is your answer? I honestly do not know it.

The reason that Christians should be baptized is to cleanse them from the bondage of original sin.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 
J

jsanford108

New member
Right Divider said:
Because He was a member of the nation of Israel and therefore under the law of Moses.

Gal 4:4-5 (KJV)​
(4:4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (4:5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

​
Rom 15:8 (KJV)​
(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

​
Matt 15:24 (KJV)​
(15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ​

It's not that hard to understand.
Click to expand...

I know why Jesus did. My question was directed at our friend, so to see the reasoning he provides.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 
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