Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, the Lord promises eternal life to all who believe. And once a person believes he possesses eternal life and will never perish.
ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works
- Thread starter musterion
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No, the Lord promises eternal life to all who believe. And once a person believes he possesses eternal life and will never perish.
Right Divider
Body part
That's a lot of vague terminology there.
The way that people like JM define LS, you have to be perfectly obedient and nobody is.
You are defining a standard that you nor anyone keeps.
Repentance is a requirement for salvation. One must be willing to turn from sin.
Right Divider
Body part
That is what churchianity teaches, what does the Bible say?
Wrong. How "willingly?" Specifics.
The reason the Saviour died? Because we cannot turn from sin, to the standard required. And what is the standard, audience? "Willingness" is irrelevant.
Repentance is still necessary.
Is Repentance Necessary for Salvation?
It is true that there are numerous Bible verses that speak of the promise of salvation, with no mention of repentance. These merely say to "believe" on Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). However, the Bible makes it clear that God is holy and man is sinful, and that sin makes a separation between the two (Isaiah 59:1,2). Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ.
The Scriptures speak of "repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18). We turn from sin to the Savior. This is why Paul preached "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). The first public word Jesus preached was "repent" (Matthew 4:17). John the Baptist began his ministry the same way (Matthew 3:2). Jesus told His hearers that without repentance, they would perish (Luke 13:3).
If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent. However, the Bible tells us that a false convert "believes" and yet is not saved (Luke 8:13); he remains a "worker of iniquity." Look at the warning of Scripture: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 John 1:6). The Scriptures also say, "He that covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them [repentance] shall have mercy" (Proverbs 28:13). Jesus said that there was joy in heaven over one sinner who "repents" (Luke 15:10). If there is no repentance, there is no joy because there is no salvation.
When Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost, he commanded his hearers to repent "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Without repentance, there is no remission of sins; we are still under His wrath. Peter further said, "Repent . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). We cannot be "converted" unless we repent. God Himself "commands all men everywhere [leaving no exceptions] to repent" (Acts 17:30). Peter said a similar thing at Pentecost: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you" (Acts 2:38).
If repentance wasn’t necessary for salvation, why then did Jesus command that repentance be preached to all nations (Luke 24:47)? With so many Scriptures speaking of the necessity of repentance for salvation, one can only suspect that those who preach salvation without repentance are strangers to repentance themselves, and thus strangers to true conversion.
(From Livingwaters.com)
Is Repentance Necessary for Salvation?
It is true that there are numerous Bible verses that speak of the promise of salvation, with no mention of repentance. These merely say to "believe" on Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). However, the Bible makes it clear that God is holy and man is sinful, and that sin makes a separation between the two (Isaiah 59:1,2). Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ.
The Scriptures speak of "repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18). We turn from sin to the Savior. This is why Paul preached "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). The first public word Jesus preached was "repent" (Matthew 4:17). John the Baptist began his ministry the same way (Matthew 3:2). Jesus told His hearers that without repentance, they would perish (Luke 13:3).
If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent. However, the Bible tells us that a false convert "believes" and yet is not saved (Luke 8:13); he remains a "worker of iniquity." Look at the warning of Scripture: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 John 1:6). The Scriptures also say, "He that covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them [repentance] shall have mercy" (Proverbs 28:13). Jesus said that there was joy in heaven over one sinner who "repents" (Luke 15:10). If there is no repentance, there is no joy because there is no salvation.
When Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost, he commanded his hearers to repent "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Without repentance, there is no remission of sins; we are still under His wrath. Peter further said, "Repent . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). We cannot be "converted" unless we repent. God Himself "commands all men everywhere [leaving no exceptions] to repent" (Acts 17:30). Peter said a similar thing at Pentecost: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you" (Acts 2:38).
If repentance wasn’t necessary for salvation, why then did Jesus command that repentance be preached to all nations (Luke 24:47)? With so many Scriptures speaking of the necessity of repentance for salvation, one can only suspect that those who preach salvation without repentance are strangers to repentance themselves, and thus strangers to true conversion.
(From Livingwaters.com)
musterion
Well-known member
That makes you a baptismal salvationist. Catholic from the sound of it.
Derf
Well-known member
The only part I disagree with in your statement is the "No": Rev 21:27. The two go hand in hand.
Derf
Well-known member
Nobody does currently. Everybody will, eventually.
Right Divider
Body part
So you think that nobody is saved today, but someday everybody will be?
musterion
Well-known member
Ray Comfort is extremely pro-LS due to his crusade against false conversions.
Derf
Well-known member
I'm not sure how you got that impression.
You said:
And I replied:
I think the discrepancy is that you are thinking only in terms of the present, but God is working on eternity. Surely you don't think we will all keep sinning in eternity??
Will anyone sin in eternity?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you not realize that the Christian is "perfected forever?:
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).
Besides that, Christians already possess eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus says that all those to whom He has given eternal life will never perish (Jn.10:28).
We also know that the eternal life enjoyed by Christians is described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:23) and the gifts of the Lord are without repentance (Ro.11:29). Besides that, here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who believe and therefore have eternal life:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
Despite all of these facts you continue to insist that a Christian can actually perish. We have been given the gift of eternal life and the Lord Jesus will not take back that gift but according to your ideas He does. The Lord Jesus promises that those who have eternal life will not come into judgment but you say that they can.
Besides that, once a person comes to Christ he will always be with Him:
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).
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jsanford108
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Derf
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Ask Mr. Religion
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Regeneration (quickening) precedes faith and repentance
Regeneration (quickening) precedes faith and repentance
In other words, a sinner cannot believe, repent, accept the gospel and come to Christ unless God first sovereignly and graciously gives that sinner new life by the power of his Word and Spirit (as in Eze. 36:26). After that regenerative event, the person will not not want to believe and repent.
On the other hand if it is meant that a person somehow is able to muster up repentance all by themselves, then, the answer is no. Why? Because the unbeliever must first be given some spark of spiritual life, regenerated, before that person is now in possession of the moral ability to believe. Before this instantaneous temporal event of regeneration, the unbeliever is not able to believe given their state of moral inability (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). The unbeliever's moral inability is as a result of the fall of Adam, whose sin has been imputed (judicially declared) by God to all of Adam's progeny. From the implications of this judicial sentence, we are born sinners and sin because we are sinners. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners by sinning.
Of course, faith is not the cause of anything, soteriologically speaking. Faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner, by the Holy Spirit and Word of God. In other words, God is the author of our faith. So faith is but the evidence that one has been born anew (as a result of the one-time regenerative event, the quickening, Eze. 36:26). Faith and repentance, two side of a coin, are the firstfruits of one's regeneration.
It is God who grants repentance, not man. Repentance is a Divine gift. How then is man responsible for not having it? We are called upon to repent in order that we may feel our own inability to do so, and consequently be thrown upon God and petition Him to perform this work of grace in our hearts. The call to repentance is but one of God's means in Scripture to bring His children into the Kingdom.
The Golden Chain of Redemption in Scripture is: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, union to Christ, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.
AMR
Regeneration (quickening) precedes faith and repentance
If by this it is meant that all that are genuinely saved will repent, then, yes, sure it is. Yet the fact that one will have faith and repent comes after one's quickening, that is, regeneration. God effects regeneration by the heart-turning power of His Spirit without any cooperation from man. Here fallen man's renewal is only passive and subjective inasmuch as he is a mere subject receiving the action of God. The regenerative instantaneous event is much like that initial electrical spark that brings the engine to life. Likewise, the regenerative event quickens the spiritually dead to life.
In other words, a sinner cannot believe, repent, accept the gospel and come to Christ unless God first sovereignly and graciously gives that sinner new life by the power of his Word and Spirit (as in Eze. 36:26). After that regenerative event, the person will not not want to believe and repent.
On the other hand if it is meant that a person somehow is able to muster up repentance all by themselves, then, the answer is no. Why? Because the unbeliever must first be given some spark of spiritual life, regenerated, before that person is now in possession of the moral ability to believe. Before this instantaneous temporal event of regeneration, the unbeliever is not able to believe given their state of moral inability (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). The unbeliever's moral inability is as a result of the fall of Adam, whose sin has been imputed (judicially declared) by God to all of Adam's progeny. From the implications of this judicial sentence, we are born sinners and sin because we are sinners. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners by sinning.
Of course, faith is not the cause of anything, soteriologically speaking. Faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner, by the Holy Spirit and Word of God. In other words, God is the author of our faith. So faith is but the evidence that one has been born anew (as a result of the one-time regenerative event, the quickening, Eze. 36:26). Faith and repentance, two side of a coin, are the firstfruits of one's regeneration.
It is God who grants repentance, not man. Repentance is a Divine gift. How then is man responsible for not having it? We are called upon to repent in order that we may feel our own inability to do so, and consequently be thrown upon God and petition Him to perform this work of grace in our hearts. The call to repentance is but one of God's means in Scripture to bring His children into the Kingdom.
The Golden Chain of Redemption in Scripture is: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, union to Christ, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.
Spoiler
AMR
Right Divider
Body part
I know that God has already dealt with sin and that perfect obedience to some vague standard is NOT how one gets saved today.
LS is a false faith.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Justification is not an experience as such, like the others. That is why Luther called it the 'alien righteousness.'
musterion
Well-known member
How long have you been a universal salvationist?