ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

[musterion]

I said that John 20:31 does not necessarily negate the fact that men receive life before they believe and are justified

"Not necessarily?" Doublespeak.

Either saving faith is unilaterally granted by God only to some of the unable to believe mass of mankind, OR it is an innate component in all men, placed there by Him from Adam onward, one which anyone might exercise. It is one or the other.

PICK ONE.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Born Again vs. Regeneration

Born Again vs. Regeneration

Hi AMR. :wave:

This quote from the person you cited shows me that even those the most convinced of what they claim, don't actually know for a fact. The timing of believing and regeneration could just as easily be, as so many of us claim, instantaneous. It's the power of the Gospel that gives knowledge and light...being touched by God and filled with the Spirit. Personally, I think it's a distinction with no real difference...."may" and "maybe" and a "sort of faith".

"People may have a sort of faith or an openness to the idea of God , maybe but the faith that justifies them before almighty God does not come from within a person prior to regeneration."​

What I can know for sure is what happened to me...the moment I first believed.

Thanks, sister. I do think the instantaneous event is clearly the right view when it comes to one's re-birth.

Born Again versus Regeneration Strictly Speaking

See also:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer_regen.html

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Anyone new on the scene here should exercise caution in interacting with Jerry. He refuses to remember what he has seen in responses by others and just repeats himself and declares victory.

Unlike you, I put my faith in what the Scriptures say instead of what some say about the Scriptures. I say that John 20:31 teaches that life comes as a result of believing and not before believing, as the Calvinsts teach.

Let us look at the meaning of the Greek word hina found in these two places here:

"But these are written, that (hina) ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that (hina) believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

The Greek word hina means "to the intent that; to the end that, in order that" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In the first instance we see that these words are written "in order that" ye might believe.

In the second instance a person believes "in order that" he might have life.

This means that life comes as a result of believing. But you teach that regeneration (life) precedes believing. You have it backwards.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The timing of believing and regeneration could just as easily be, as so many of us claim, instantaneous.

The Calvinists speak of the "logical order of salvation" and according to their logical order "life" precedes "faith."

And in order to defend their false beliefs they deny the fact that the following verse teaches that "life" comes as a result of faith:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

The Calvinists put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than they do in what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Don't pay much attention to jerry

Interpretation: TulipBee doesn't have an answer to John 20:31 so she just pretends that it doesn't even exist and therefore we shouldn't pay any attention to Jerry since he brought up that verse!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jerry Shugart's Monologues

Jerry Shugart's Monologues

Unlike you, I put my faith in what the Scriptures say instead of what some say about the Scriptures. I say that John 20:31 teaches that life comes as a result of believing and not before believing, as the Calvinsts teach.

Let us look at the meaning of the Greek word hina found in these two places here:

"But these are written, that (hina) ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that (hina) believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

The Greek word hina means "to the intent that; to the end that, in order that" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In the first instance we see that these words are written "in order that" ye might believe.

In the second instance a person believes "in order that" he might have life.

This means that life comes as a result of believing. But you teach that regeneration (life) precedes believing. You have it backwards.

Jerry,

Again, you just make my previously made point: you refuse to interact directly with responses given:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...st-w-o-works&p=4955149&viewfull=1#post4955149

Read the post. Go back to the responses given in the links in that post. Read them. Interact with them.

All you have done in this post is restate what you have stated previously. I and others have responded to your statements. Why is it you refuse to deal directly with what you have been given in response? You offer no rebuttals wherein you interact with content previously provided and provide even a modicum of rejoinders. You just say the same thing over and over. Hence, as stated, you are wasting everyone's time having a monologue with yourself.

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, you just make my previously made point: you refuse to interact directly with responses given:

Your so-called response just denies what is so plainly stated at John 20:31.

Why don't you give us your interpretation of the meaning of that verse?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jerry is Too Careless

Jerry is Too Careless

Your so-called response just denies what is so plainly stated at John 20:31.

Why don't you give us your interpretation of the meaning of that verse?

Huh?

Are you actually unable to read? Have eyesight issues? :idunno:

Go here (my post in this very thread):
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...st-w-o-works&p=4955149&viewfull=1#post4955149

If you actually read the item, links #1 and #2 in that post both contain explanations of the verse. Like I said, you have been answered.

What a waste of time you are, Jerry.

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What a waste of time you are, Jerry.

You are the one who is a waste of time, not me. I quoted a verse which proves that "life" comes as a result of believing, not before believing as you imagine. Then when I asked you to give us your interpretation of the meaning of John 20:31 all you did was to give me a link. So go to your link and copy and paste that interpretation so we can all see it.

 

[Nihilo]

Repentance is a requirement for salvation. One must be willing to turn from sin.

I don't see how a person could believe 1st Corinthians 15:3 (KJV) without also accepting that they are sinners.

 

[intojoy]

Is being willing to clean up one's life, to turn from sin, or to stop sinning a required part of getting saved?

No


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jerry Shugart's Laziness

Jerry Shugart's Laziness

You are the one who is a waste of time, not me. I quoted a verse which proves that "life" comes as a result of believing, not before believing as you imagine. Then when I asked you to give us your interpretation of the meaning of John 20:31 all you did was to give me a link. So go to your link and copy and paste that interpretation so we can all see it.

The link is to my own posts at this site, Jerry: in threads you participated within and in direct response to your own questions about the same verse.

If you are too lazy to keep up with your own posts and responses received to them, I am under no obligation to do your own homework or clutter up the site with redundant posts. I know you enjoy being redundant, but most of us do not. :AMR:

AMR

 

[ok doser]

Is being willing to clean up one's life, to turn from sin, or to stop sinning a required part of getting saved?

:think: good question, but i'd want to see a definition of "willing"


once saved, shouldn't one be "willing" to turn their life over to Christ?

once saved, shouldn't one realize what a miserable sinner they have been and how miraculous Christ's saving grace is?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The link is to my own posts at this site, Jerry: in threads you participated within and in direct response to your own questions about the same verse.

Are you unable to copy and paste your interpretation of the following passage which proves that "life" comes as a result of believing and not before believing, as you imagine?:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

We are anxious to hear your interpretation of the meaning of the passage and it will be a simple thing for you to copy and paste that interpretation. So don't let us down.

 

[Lon]

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31)
.​

A forum answer may be short, or in-depth depending on the author. Hasn't AMR, then, done both? What are you looking for? :idunno:
​

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jerry Asks, Is Answered, Jerry Asks Again

Jerry Asks, Is Answered, Jerry Asks Again

Are you unable to copy and paste your interpretation of the following passage which proves that "life" comes as a result of believing and not before believing, as you imagine?:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

We are anxious to hear your interpretation of the meaning of the passage and it will be a simple thing for you to copy and paste that interpretation. So don't let us down.

Jerry,

If it is such a "simple thing" then why in my past responses to you regarding the exact same verse you keep appealing to have went unanswered in their content? Why must I or anyone repeat themselves to you when you have failed to actually engage the responses you were already given? Let's not play Whack-A-Mole. Meet your obligations. I have met mine.

AMR

 

[Lon]

Some verses:

Romans 10:14

Luke 19:10

Ephesians 2:8&9

Question: What saves us? Our calling on the Name of the Lord? Our belief?

How are we saved? Are we saved because something in a few of us makes us respond?

"If" that were the case, then didn't Jesus die knowing ONLY those who had that something of desire, would respond? In essence, though 'he died for the whole world" wouldn't you believe He really only came for those who had that something? IOW, wasn't only hurting lovers of God Jesus died for if it depends on us? Freewill theology demands this, you know. Don't you? ONLY those with the freewill inclination would be saved. They ALREADY had a love for Savior or they could not have responded with believing faith. Now perhaps (perhaps for illustration) Calvinism is wrong on the exact same conclusion: Jesus only died for some 'special' people called the elect.

Actually, it is rather that the Lord Jesus Christ actively put ALL of His energy in Saving all that COULD be saved under whatever conditions that exist. So, really, everyone is some kind of Calvinist OR they believe all get saved (Universalists). Universalists, though, deny that the Lord Jesus Christ had to come in the first place.

So, in a nutshell, we all believe in a limited atonement UNLESS that person is a universalist, and then he/she denies the need for the Lord Jesus Christ altogether. If you can at least agree with that, you and all reading would at least appreciate a Calvinist perspective, if not much else.

Humbly submitted -Lon

 

[glorydaz]

Thanks, sister. I do think the instantaneous event is clearly the right view when it comes to one's re-birth.

Born Again versus Regeneration Strictly Speaking

See also:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer_regen.html

AMR

Uh oh...I answered this in the wrong thread. You tricked me.

But, I copied and pasted it here.

We also, I believe, rightly understand the teachings of Scripture about the full effects of the Fall of Adam, recognizing that unless God does something to the fallen man, none would ever choose the righteousness of God. We give thanks to God for His mercy in choosing some out of the entire fallen lump of humanity in Adam to be redeemed, not because God saw something good in the chosen by peeking down the corridors of time, but simply because of His own good counsel to set His preferences upon (God's love) another. Hence, those not so chosen are left in their state of sin and ongoing sinning, never to be the subject of any of God's saving graces.

This is where you totally lose me...."God choosing some..."

Rather, God does indeed do something to fallen man. He engineers our circumstances to give us every chance to seek him. He has created us with the knowledge of Him clearly manifest in us...where we can clearly see. And His law is written in our conscience...not beyond our ability to do it. Romans 2:14, 15KJV

As we walk through this life, we see God's goodness and forbearance which leads us to turn from unbelief to belief. So that we are brought to our knees and hear the Gospel when we are most in need of hearing it. God actually does a lot to prepare us to hear the Gospel of Salvation. That there is power in that Word works perfectly for those who have not so hardened their hearts that they refuse the plea from their Creator. 2 Cor. 5:20KJV

Romans 2:4KJV Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

A forum answer may be short, or in-depth depending on the author. Hasn't AMR, then, done both? What are you looking for?

He told me that my interpretation of John 20:30-31 was in error so I told him to give me his interpretation of its meaning. But he refuses to do that and instead sent me to a link where he does not give an interpretation of that passage.

I told him to copy and paste his interpretation but he refuses to do that. Frankly, I think that he is ashamed to give his interpretation of the meaning of this passage:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If it is such a "simple thing" then why in my past responses to you regarding the exact same verse you keep appealing to have went unanswered in their content?

I searched and searched for your interpretation of the meaning of John 20:310-31 and could not find it. If it is actually there in one of those many links then it will be a simple thing for you to copy and paste that interpretation.