ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

[Derf]

Those who deny the eternal security of the believer ask, "If this passage refers to people who have eternal security then how would it have been better for them NOT to have known the way of righteousness?"

...

Nonetheless, upon believing the gospel they received eternal life and the assurance that they will never perish (Jn.3:16)

[2Pe 2:1 KJV] 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Apparently the false prophets are denying the Lord that bought them (so they are already purchased with His blood). You're saying that they are destroyed, but still saved. Maybe that's so, but it's internally counterintuitive.

Lon gives a different interpretation:

There are more verses and a good read of the whole chapter, I think, helps. It seems to me, the term believer has to be explained and probably is part of the problem as a definition. Peter is describing rather 'church-goers' than someone who is born of the Spirit of God.

I believe scripture makes a distinction between someone who is among Christians, and Christians. 1 John 2:19 for instance, says "they were never a part of 'us' or they would never have left us." 2 Peter 2:9 contrasts the 'godly' from the 'false' in this case, that it would encompass very much 1 John's message that God preserves the godly AND keeps the ungodly under judgement.

I don't have any problem with Jesus being able to keep that which belongs to Him, but there is certainly some confusion over which belong to Him. Is a Christ denier an unbeliever? Not necessarily, since Peter was a Christ denier. Can someone who is a false prophet and one that is bringing in damnable heresies, who was bought by Christ be a believer, and then be condemned to hell?

[2Pe 2:12 KJV] 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

We have to reconcile that these were bought with Christ's blood, but they will utterly perish in their own corruption.

You say that these folks are really believers, but they shall utterly perish.
Lon says that these folks were never believers, but they were bought by Christ.
I'm suggesting (just suggesting, mind you), that maybe a true believer can somehow reject Christ enough to not be a believer anymore, in which case

1. They were bought by Christ
2. They changed their mind
3. They shall be utterly destroyed
4. And their last state is worse than their first (meaning, I think, that they would come under greater condemnation after knowing the Savior)

So, back to my question: Is it possible that a believer can stop believing, and thus become an unbeliever?

 

[Right Divider]

[2Pe 2:1 KJV] 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Apparently the false prophets are denying the Lord that bought them (so they are already purchased with His blood). You're saying that they are destroyed, but still saved. Maybe that's so, but it's internally counterintuitive.

Lon gives a different interpretation:


I don't have any problem with Jesus being able to keep that which belongs to Him, but there is certainly some confusion over which belong to Him. Is a Christ denier an unbeliever? Not necessarily, since Peter was a Christ denier. Can someone who is a false prophet and one that is bringing in damnable heresies, who was bought by Christ be a believer, and then be condemned to hell?

[2Pe 2:12 KJV] 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

We have to reconcile that these were bought with Christ's blood, but they will utterly perish in their own corruption.

You say that these folks are really believers, but they shall utterly perish.
Lon says that these folks were never believers, but they were bought by Christ.
I'm suggesting (just suggesting, mind you), that maybe a true believer can somehow reject Christ enough to not be a believer anymore, in which case

1. They were bought by Christ
2. They changed their mind
3. They shall be utterly destroyed
4. And their last state is worse than their first (meaning, I think, that they would come under greater condemnation after knowing the Savior)

So, back to my question: Is it possible that a believer can stop believing, and thus become an unbeliever?

Your confusion comes from your failure to rightly divide prophecy and mystery.

 

[musterion]

I have a related question: What if someone ceases to believe in Christ?

Two choices, which pretty much everyone already knows.

1. The person is not Christ's and so any cessation of faith means nothing because they were never his to begin with... most often due to being the victim of a false gospel.

2. The person does indeed belong to Christ and is therefore guaranteed to become the finished work God has said they will be. This renders your question moot: whatever crises of faith he or she may undergo in their walk, that person will never be lost simply because God is guaranteed their ultimate conformity to the Son.

 

[Lon]

So, back to my question: Is it possible that a believer can stop believing, and thus become an unbeliever?

Yes, with the caveat that a 'believer' may not be regenerate. That is, their believing one thing or the other is not what is salvation as far as I understand scriptures. I tend to think it isn't so much that I have a hold of Jesus, but really if Jesus has a hold of me ("He who has the Son, has life." John 3:16-21).

I guess in a nutshell, I'm saying yes, one who believes something, may turn away. Conversely, a new creation (who would new-naturally be a 'believer' as it were, will live according to that new nature and he/she is sealed in and by the Spirit thus will keep alive and produce fruit in keeping with that nature because the new nature doesn't die. Thus 1 John 2:19 is talking about a 'believer' (no assurance of rebirth by the broader definition, thus regenerate and unregenerate who meet together). This is my understanding of the scriptures concerning this, at least. In Him -Lon

 

[Derf]

Your confusion comes from your failure to rightly divide prophecy and mystery.

No doubt. But it also seems to come from a lack of clarity from all those others who are no doubt rightly dividing. Thanks for any help you can rightly provide, Divider.

 

[Derf]

Two choices, which pretty much everyone already knows.

1. The person is not Christ's and so any cessation of faith means nothing because they were never his to begin with... most often due to being the victim of a false gospel.

2. The person does indeed belong to Christ and is therefore guaranteed to become the finished work God has said they will be. This renders your question moot: whatever crises of faith he or she may undergo in their walk, that person will never be lost simply because God is guaranteed their ultimate conformity to the Son.

Thanks Musterion. But really both answers render the question moot by their rejection of one or the other premise. That may be the right answer--that one or the other of my premises is false. But 2 Pet 2 seems to talk otherwise. I'm just asking for a bit more reflection before we all go our merry ways.

If we can't reconsider our positions every now and then, we are really making the claim that we are the source of truth.

 

[Right Divider]

No doubt. But it also seems to come from a lack of clarity from all those others who are no doubt rightly dividing. Thanks for any help you can rightly provide, Divider.

You simply need to recognize that some of the revelation given to Paul was a mystery never before made known to man from God.

Most everyone tries to smash it together with the prophecy given to Israel for their earthly kingdom and they end of with a complete mess.

 

[Danoh]

You simply need to recognize that some of the revelation given to Paul was a mystery never before made known to man from God.

Most everyone tries to smash it together with the prophecy given to Israel for their earthly kingdom and they end of with a complete mess.

Yep :thumb:

 

[musterion]

Thanks Musterion. But really both answers render the question moot by their rejection of one or the other premise. That may be the right answer--that one or the other of my premises is false. But 2 Pet 2 seems to talk otherwise. I'm just asking for a bit more reflection before we all go our merry ways.

If we can't reconsider our positions every now and then, we are really making the claim that we are the source of truth.

Here's how I look at it.

One's standing before God is either eternally and unconditionally fixed and secure in Christ, or it is not. I know we agree on that.

But given that premise, which apostle unquestionably teaches eternal security in Christ and, more to RDs point, why does this obvious disparity exist at all? Does God author confusion? No. So what's behind it?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[2Pe 2:1 KJV] 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Apparently the false prophets are denying the Lord that bought them (so they are already purchased with His blood). You're saying that they are destroyed, but still saved. Maybe that's so, but it's internally counterintuitive.

The Jews who were denying the Lord Jesus spoken of here belong to the nation which the Lord redeemed or bought out of Egypt:

"But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:8).​

Now a question for you. The Scriptures reveal that the Christian already possesses eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus says that those to whom he has given eternal life "shall never perish"(Jn.10:28).

How is it possible for those who have already received eternal life to lose their salvation?

 

[Danoh]

Here's how I look at it.

One's standing before God is either eternally and unconditionally fixed and secure in Christ, or it is not. I know we agree on that.

But given that premise, which apostle teaches eternal security in Christ and, more to RDs point, why does thr obvious disparity exist at all? Does God author confusion? No. So what's behind it?

Individual, Eternal Security is the present possession of EACH Individual within BOTH Prophecy and Mystery .

It is Israel's NATIONAL blotting out of their COLLECTIVE sins AS A NATION that was/is YET FUTURE that throws many off - including some Dispies.

 

[Derf]

Yes, with the caveat that a 'believer' may not be regenerate. That is, their believing one thing or the other is not what is salvation as far as I understand scriptures. I tend to think it isn't so much that I have a hold of Jesus, but really if Jesus has a hold of me ("He who has the Son, has life." John 3:16-21).

No, their believing is not salvation, but their believing brings salvation:

I guess in a nutshell, I'm saying yes, one who believes something, may turn away. Conversely, a new creation (who would new-naturally be a 'believer' as it were, will live according to that new nature and he/she is sealed in and by the Spirit thus will keep alive and produce fruit in keeping with that nature because the new nature doesn't die. Thus 1 John 2:19 is talking about a 'believer' (no assurance of rebirth by the broader definition, thus regenerate and unregenerate who meet together). This is my understanding of the scriptures concerning this, at least. In Him -Lon

But that would seem to suggest that Christ died for more than those He would regenerate--in fact those that will utterly perish, assuming that's what Peter meant by the "bought them" phrase. We can make the assumption that Peter meant something different from what he said, like just the church attenders, including those that weren't regenerate, but then we have to question our motives, don't you think?

 

[Derf]

You simply need to recognize that some of the revelation given to Paul was a mystery never before made known to man from God.

Most everyone tries to smash it together with the prophecy given to Israel for their earthly kingdom and they end of with a complete mess.

Are we suggesting here that Peter was in error, while Paul was correct? I don't see that Peter was talking about any earthly kingdom kind of thing, and he made reference to Paul's doctrine in the next chapter that some had tried to skew for their own purposes.


Am I missing your point?

 

[Derf]

Here's how I look at it.

One's standing before God is either eternally and unconditionally fixed and secure in Christ, or it is not. I know we agree on that.

"One's" may be a little nebulous, don't you think. Let's say that "one" refers to a 16 year old unbeliever who is just getting ready to go to a church service for the first time. is that young man's standing before God eternally and unconditionally fixed and secure in Christ? If so, then it's fixed as a negative, not a positive. Yet in an hour the condition might be different.

So turn that around, and let's talk about a believer that is about to enter a Richard Dawkins crusade, if you'll allow the term. In that crusade, he will hear about how evolution explains all of life, and there is no need for God. This happens, regularly! My question, simply, is: "if a believer no longer believes, is his eternal security secure?"

But given that premise, which apostle teaches eternal security in Christ and, more to RDs point, why does thr obvious disparity exist at all? Does God author confusion? No. So what's behind it?

No, I don't think a disparity exists, but I'm not too sure there's a consensus as to what it means.

 

[Right Divider]

Are we suggesting here that Peter was in error, while Paul was correct?

Of course not. Where would you get such an idea?

I don't see that Peter was talking about any earthly kingdom kind of thing, and he made reference to Paul's doctrine in the next chapter that some had tried to skew for their own purposes.

Of course Peter talks about an earthly kingdom, that is Israel's destiny.

2Pet 1:11 (KJV)​

(1:11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
​

Notice that the "entrance SHALL be ministered unto you".

Am I missing your point?

Yes.

 

[musterion]

Individual, Eternal Security is the present possession of EACH Individual within BOTH Prophecy and Mystery.

2 Pet 2:20-21

2 Jn 1:9

 

[musterion]

My question, simply, is: "if a believer no longer believes, is his eternal security secure?"

My simplest, bluntest answer: it depends on which good news he had believed.

 

[Danoh]

I have a related question: What if someone ceases to believe in Christ? If belief in Christ is the clincher, and it seems like it is, then what if someone who believed no longer believes? Has that person lost his salvation, or did he never have it in the first place? Were all of his sins forgiven at his conversion, including the future sin of unbelief?

As you can now see - it depends on who you ask.

For even within a group wherein a somewhat similar understanding is held on some things, you'll often find different understandings on other things.

In the end, you are left with you and your Bible - and hopefully, some measure of common sense.

Meaning not only lots of questions demanding to be asked as one's guide, while studying, but often: just as many questions about whether or not the questions one is asking oneself as one studies; are even the right kinds of questions; to begin with.

And it is a fascinating, never ending process of refinement.

As it should be and must be; for some people will only take issue when challenged on some view they hold.

Such not only continue to fool themsves into believing they are growing; but after a time are no longer able to contribute to anyone who does not hold their views.

Which in itself is also a valuable lesson - as to the pitfalls one would do well to avoid following the example of.

It's fascinating this - how that no matter the obstacle, one can still learn some thing of value.

Just a matter of questions...about the questions one has been asking oneself

 

[Danoh]

2 Pet 2:20-21

2 Jn 1:9

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[musterion]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Attempts at Mexican standoffs with Scripture will not be acknowledged.