Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[Nang]

And what is Heaven?
It is a realm that God created ... It was first called the firmament. You read about it in Genesis 1.

Holy Scripture teaches there are 3 heavens:

Two created.

One being the eternal (thus uncreated) realm of God.

The first heaven, is the created atmosphere and sky that is visible to man, in which creatures fly.

The second heaven, is outer space, which God created to give guiding lights to mankind, in order to navigate earth and sea.

The third heaven, is the realm of God's Being. And since this realm is eternal, it is divine, and therefore, is not created, but rather is the everlasting spiritual description of where God IS, and where He reigns and rules in full glory, forever and ever.

Nang

 

[Ps82]

hI Nang,
You explained:

Jesus Christ, being the Person ordained to come in the image of God, remains uncreate. . . even while born of woman, He was conceived by the Spirit of God, alone.

I agree that our Lord Jesus came straight from God ... but it was required for some reason that he enter this world through the natural door... called a woman's womb. There must have been a reason for that ... but the Bible does not make that reason clear. I would speculate that it had something to do with being born with flesh or a mortal person so that the curse of sin and death could be upon him...so that he could over it for man's sake.

You wrote:

He is the first-born (spiritually resurrected) of all elect and redeemed creatures, in the bodily form of man, but only because He innately also possessed the power and essence (nature) of uncreate God.

I agree that he became the first born of many who would follow his example to enter the kingdom of God... yet we enter the kingdom in two ways ... our invisible spiritual nature and with a literal glorified visible image.

Yet, this truth does not rule out that the IMAGE of God was there before the world was. It was first mentioned in Genesis 1:26,27 KJV. It is just that people have been told not to believe what they read in scripture regarding the image. An image is something to be seen. Is it any wonder that God created eyes for beholding IT?

I love the event when our Lord Jesus stooped down and picked up dirt and added his divine spittle to the ground and formed functioning eyeballs for the man that had been blind since birth. It reminds me of what The LORD did in Genesis 2 ...who formed every part of the visible body for Adam... including his eyeballs... proving that He (Our Lord) was the creator of Genesis 2... and 1 ... etc.

 

[Lighthouse]

Yep, I believe that God has seen every possibility, already.

But not actualities?

 

[Ps82]

Nang,
It is late and I'm tired... so good night.

 

[Nang]

hI Nang,
You explained:


I agree that our Lord Jesus came straight from God ... but it was required for some reason that he enter this world through the natural door... called a woman's womb. There must have been a reason for that ... but the Bible does not make that reason clear. I would speculate that it had something to do with being born with flesh or a mortal person so that the curse of sin and death could be upon him...so that he could over it for man's sake.

Well, sure . . . that is the gospel message.

The Lord from heaven, lowered Himself to come in human form, in order to mediate reconciliation between infinite God and finite men, to build a heavenly Kingdom!

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death; that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14

You wrote:

Yet, this truth does not rule out that the IMAGE of God was there before the world was. It was first mentioned in Genesis 1:26,27 KJV.

Yes. But I am not sure it is wise to call this "image" of God, a created "it."

The "image" of God is solely found in uncreate Jesus Christ, and those created in His image. It is the self-concept of uncreated God of His Person, that has been shared with His creation of mankind.

Your thoughts are inspirational, but I caution you not to become too mystical, on this subject.

Nang

 

[sky.]

But not actualities?

God doesn't need your or my "actualities" to be in control. What we do in time doesn't affect His eternality. What He does in our time doesn't change His eternality.

 

[Nang]

God doesn't need your or my "actualities" to be in control. What we do in time doesn't affect His eternality.

Exactly.

Nang

 

[Lon]

Bob's key point that brings a deathblow to all those who pervert the truth, and also what I have pointed out in the past, is that the reason we know with certainty that God is not outside of time is that Jesus became a man. Jesus currently has the nail scars in his hands. He did not have the nail scars in His hands before the incarnation. This was a change that God experienced in our age, and is a reality in the ages to come, that was not a reality for God in eternity past.

No. Same fail, different post correction: God is "relational to, unconstrained by" His creation. It is already so obvious that you are the one perverting truth to the rest of us. How can John be seeing a literal half an hour in heaven in the future if it is a literal half an hour?
How can you assign time to an eternal nonbeginning unless you vote that God has a creation date too. Essentially, denying that God is apart from time, is a god who is a created being. There is no logical way around that fact, when pressed. You cannot have a God who is constrained to time. There is no possible way you can mean "God" when such is asserted.

 

[Paulos]

God became a man. That is a change, unless you believe that God was always a man, which makes you a Mormon.

Does Jesus change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.​

 

[Lon]

Jesus has a body now. Jesus did not have body then. God experiences time. Case closed.

Yep. Now pay attention, please: Relational to, unconstrained by. He can go through time as you and I, but His movements are "inside" His creation. He has time insomuch as He relates to us but 1) it is impossible for Him to be unidirectional only 2) If you agree He has no beginning and is God very God, then you admit to # 1 whether you see the logical dots or not. You'd be essentially saying "nuh-uh" but then saying He is God, your "nuh-uh" is negated (double-negative). To say He is God (no beginning) is to say He is beyond time as we know it, regardless if you think otherwise. Everybody but apparently the few hundred open theists understands this.

 

[Lon]

Does Jesus change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
​

Yeah, they'll read that as 'literally' yesterday, not as an eternal non-beginning. Saying "He changed" means He has a start-up date and is somehow a created being as well as an uncreated being. Essentially, that is what open theism means. They don't see the huge logical discrepancy that should be more than apparent, hammering on misdirection rather, that such an idea is from "greek philosophers."
I don't care who sees logical conclusions, as long as they are consistent.
I rather doubt Christianity is influenced by greek philosophy but that right thinking, regardless of who in Greece or Poland sees it, is right thinking, period. Who cares who comes up with truth as long as it is truth. People can agree with God's truth, even if they haven't read the Bible. The strawmen would have us think that if it is greek, its bad? That's quite a leap I can't make with them.

 

[godrulz]

This is blatantly false. Christians that believe that God is ETERNAL do NOT think God is "in an eternal now" that doesn't even make sense to a Christian. It is however what YOU believe. It is what "Open Theism" teaches and goes directly against the divine attributes of God. You can spin it any way you want but ETERNAL means TIMELESS.

Eternal includes uncreated, no beginning and no end. It does not preclude duration/sequence/succession (time) nor does it have to mean timeless (whatever that means). "Eternal now" is the concept for timelessness. C.S. Lewis used it, but he was wrong on this issue. You simply beg the question and show you do not understand this debate at all.

 

[godrulz]

Yep, I believe that God has seen every possibility, already.

There is a difference between possibility and actuality/certainty. The potential future is anticipatory, not actual. The future becomes the fixed past through the present. If an agent does not yet exist, then the contingent choices cannot be seen/foreknown as a certainty, even by an omniscient God. If you want to retain your view, you will have to become a hyper-determinist.

 

[godrulz]

Does Jesus change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.​

Jesus changes in some ways (adding humanity to Deity in the incarnation), but not in other ways (the point of the verse, constancy of character, not absolute immutability in a Platonic sense).

 

[Lon]

Jesus changes in some ways (adding humanity to Deity in the incarnation), but not in other ways (the point of the verse, constancy of character, not absolute immutability in a Platonic sense).

Is 'becoming flesh' actually a change in who He is/was? Does it affect, let's say, His character? His eternality? God is being relational to our time constraints, but is it significant enough to call it change? I mean I can change my clothes, but such is a rather spurious thing. You don't really mean "Lon changed!" I'm still the same ol' Lon, just in a different shirt. Same somewhat-immutable me (extrinsic vs. intrinsic - one is allowable logically, the other not at all for God).

For specifics, we need to exact what kind of change we are talking about. You say "God changes" but as the OV is going with both intrinsic and extrinsic change, we must protest. We will acquiesce the extrinsic but not at all on that which is intrinsic. Extrinsic ("relational to") is understood.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Here is a biblical PROOF that GOD IS IN TIME and experiences change in sequence:

Thank you! Saved for study.

 

[chatmaggot]

Yep, I believe that God has seen every possibility, already.

I didn't ask if God has seen (past tense...which is an indication of time by the way)...but whether or not He SEES the past, present, and future all at the same time.

 

[chatmaggot]

Does Jesus change?

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.​

Do the words emphasized below indicate change?

...but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

 

[chatmaggot]

Is 'becoming flesh' actually a change in who He is/was?

If He was not always flesh and became flesh...that does change who He is. His righteousness and eternal nature doesn't change...but He did experience a change from not being flash to becoming flesh.

 

[sky.]

Yep, I believe that God has seen every possibility, already.

I didn't ask if God has seen (past tense...which is an indication of time by the way)...but whether or not He SEES the past, present, and future all at the same time.

I believe that God has seen every possibility ALREADY. So yeah I think He remembers what He already saw.