One In Christ
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Apparently you did not read the OP
Proof from the Bible that God is In Time
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Apparently you did not read the OP
Nang
TOL Subscriber
God did many things before creation
So you theorize, but the answer is, no.
The definition of God is "I AM."
Not "I DO," or "I DID."
The creation (all things material) manifest God's eternal will and purposes. His creatures are born into this material world, which is time-limited (temporal).
God is eternal; thus He cannot be limited to the creation of time, for any purpose or reason.
Those who attempt to incorporate Almighty God into a time-frame, simply reveal their humanistic philosophy, which is far from faith-centered adherence to the revelation and Word of God.
Nang
Nang
TOL Subscriber
This is illogical and false.
Bob is trying to convince others that God is like Bob.
Bob insults Almighty and Eternal God by attempting to bring God down to his level.
Nang
One In Christ
New member
Slow down, he didn't state it as truth, but rather to refute a false assumption
I grazed it. I'm responding to the statement that God is in time. He is. He is because he wants to be. He is not dependent on time and exists outside both space and time.
If that's not consistent with the thought of the OP. My apologies.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Huh?
How does one refute a false assumption, except by which one believes is truth?
Bob Enyart teaches falsely on this subject, for his beliefs about Creator God are whacked out!
Nang
Hello Knight, chrysostom, and everybody ...
God is in time due to his having chosen to have a relationship with the things he created. God chose to set a process in motion and time began.
One might say that HE entered time when he began to create at a point he initiated and which HE called - "In the beginning."
Now, this starting point began before the world was ... For our Lord Jesus Christ tells us that he, being the WORD of God, had existed WITH God and shared his glory before the world was and took part in the creation process of everything.
I agree with you that the visible Lord Jesus, the Christ, showed up at a specific time ...but the invisible divine essence called The WORD existed before time the world was.
Time relates to the creation, but God relates to his creation and therefore entered time. Jesus told us that the hitherto the Father worked ... but that he (in his day) also worked. This shows us that God has established a time table ... and when "the times are fulfilled," then HE participates in the next stage by accomplishing certain things. I'm sure everyone is familiar with this phrase: "When the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled."
Just how an invisible spiritual infinite, eternal, omni-present, omni-everything God was able to step into a finite creation that moves through stages called TIME is what is interesting.
It all began when God created an image, which he would use to manifest his presence in a literal concrete finite manner within his creation. That image is first mentioned in Gen.1:26,27... and it is also mentioned in Colossians 1:15 KJV
quote: (Lord Jesus) who is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the first born of every creature.
Grammatically speaking "IMAGE" is a noun... and the phrase "the first born of every creature" is the antecedent of that noun.
IOW, the IMAGE belonging to God was the first born of EVERY CREATURE.
IOW, God's IMAGE came before any other creature was formed.
We know that His IMAGE already existed before God formed a body for Adam ... because God made Adam visible form after HIS OWN IMAGE and likeness.
God entered time when he made the way for his appearing within his own creation. God appeared as the glory of the divine LORD Father in OT times ... and again appeared in NT times with a lesser glory of flesh as the divine Lord Jesus, the Son.
Understanding how the IMAGE of God is a created visible presence personally used by God within the creation should give you a whole new revelation when you read this phrase: "Know that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.
IOW, the invisible God was able to have all things existing IN HIM ... while he was also able simultaneously be WITHin his own creation.
Our Lord Jesus was the infinite invisible God appearing on earth - aka Emmanuel.
God is in time due to his having chosen to have a relationship with the things he created. God chose to set a process in motion and time began.
One might say that HE entered time when he began to create at a point he initiated and which HE called - "In the beginning."
Now, this starting point began before the world was ... For our Lord Jesus Christ tells us that he, being the WORD of God, had existed WITH God and shared his glory before the world was and took part in the creation process of everything.
I agree with you that the visible Lord Jesus, the Christ, showed up at a specific time ...but the invisible divine essence called The WORD existed before time the world was.
Time relates to the creation, but God relates to his creation and therefore entered time. Jesus told us that the hitherto the Father worked ... but that he (in his day) also worked. This shows us that God has established a time table ... and when "the times are fulfilled," then HE participates in the next stage by accomplishing certain things. I'm sure everyone is familiar with this phrase: "When the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled."
Just how an invisible spiritual infinite, eternal, omni-present, omni-everything God was able to step into a finite creation that moves through stages called TIME is what is interesting.
It all began when God created an image, which he would use to manifest his presence in a literal concrete finite manner within his creation. That image is first mentioned in Gen.1:26,27... and it is also mentioned in Colossians 1:15 KJV
quote: (Lord Jesus) who is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the first born of every creature.
Grammatically speaking "IMAGE" is a noun... and the phrase "the first born of every creature" is the antecedent of that noun.
IOW, the IMAGE belonging to God was the first born of EVERY CREATURE.
IOW, God's IMAGE came before any other creature was formed.
We know that His IMAGE already existed before God formed a body for Adam ... because God made Adam visible form after HIS OWN IMAGE and likeness.
God entered time when he made the way for his appearing within his own creation. God appeared as the glory of the divine LORD Father in OT times ... and again appeared in NT times with a lesser glory of flesh as the divine Lord Jesus, the Son.
Understanding how the IMAGE of God is a created visible presence personally used by God within the creation should give you a whole new revelation when you read this phrase: "Know that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.
IOW, the invisible God was able to have all things existing IN HIM ... while he was also able simultaneously be WITHin his own creation.
Our Lord Jesus was the infinite invisible God appearing on earth - aka Emmanuel.
One In Christ
New member
eh, its late and my brain hurts from thinking about time... I understand your point now
Nang
TOL Subscriber
No reason to apologize. You apprehended the OP. The first sentence said it all:
"Here is a biblical PROOF that GOD IS IN TIME and experiences change in sequence:"
God does not change, because of any of His creation, for God is immutable. Any teaching that theorizes differently is just plain wrong.
Nang
Time is relative. Do you believe that God is relative or absolute?
Colossians 2:8-9 does caution us to be careful, but I don't think Paul meant for us to discount "pagan Greek philosophy" entirely. I've posted some evidence that the New Testament itself reflects thoughts and ideas that undoubtedly originated with, or were influenced by, pagan Greek philosophy. Rather than copy-and-paste those posts, here are some links:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2383251&highlight=Plato#post2383251
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2383508&highlight=Plato#post2383508
Here are a couple of links to some very insightful articles with additional information regarding the influence of Plato and other Greek philosophers and poets on Paul. The first article explains how Paul drew from Plato's philosophy "when he described the church as Christ's body, the gifts of the Spirit, ecstatic utterances in worship, putting on righteousness as a garment, conscience as a guide, and love as the greatest of Christian virtues":
Saint Paul's Homage to Plato, by F.F. Powell
"Plato, Philo, and Paul: The Influence of Platonic Thought on Paul's Theosophy", by Jim Chapman
On a lighter note, this brief article explains why Paul wrote in 1 Cor 11:14 that it is "shameful" for a man to have long hair:
"Paul: female hair too sexy to go unveiled", by John Dart
As I think you'll agree, the Greek influence was fairly considerable.
God IS sovereign, but not in the Calvinistic meticulous control sense. God being sovereign also does not mean that He is timeless or eternal now. Even in endless time view (Open Theism, etc.), God can know of Peter's denial based on perfect past and present knowledge.
Time is not a created thing nor space. It is philosophical, not physical. The measures of time should not be confused with time as a concept of duration/succession/sequence.
God is immanent (eminent and imminent are different words) and transcendent, but that does not have to mean He is timeless at all.
God is also not limited like we are with time, yet He still experiences duration. Timelessness is a Platonic, philosophical theory, not a biblical, logical fact (every page of Scripture shows sequence in God's experience; Pastor Enyart has capably dealt with some of the proof texts that are misused).
Thanks for the link. It definitely explains a lot. I will read it more carefully in the future, however, I got my answer
I was underestimating God's will and knowledge of our hearts.
Even in Open Theism, God is infinitely intelligent and ignorant of nothing knowable. The future is inherently different than the past/present and God knows reality as it is. An omnicompetent God does not have to be omnicausal nor does exhaustive definite foreknowledge (not compatible with libertarian free will) offer any providential advantage (God could not change the foreknown future even if He wanted to).
God IS eternal, but that does not mean timeless! Timelessness is a specious philosophical concept. Endless time (duration/sequence/succession) is as much eternal (no beginning, no end) as timelessness would be (whatever that means).
http://www.revivaltheology.net/9_openness/eternity.html (take a moment!)
http://www.amazon.com/God-Time-Views-Paul-Helm/dp/0830815511
Don't be dogmatic until you understand these views (Wolterstorff's divine temporality resonates with Scripture and reality)..
Read Is. 46 and 48 carefully. The way God knows some aspects of the future is by His ABILITY to bring it to pass, not by a crystal ball prescience. We cannot extrapolate some knowledge to exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies. There are two motifs in Scripture: God knows some of the future, while other aspects are open/unsettled.
The future is not there yet to be known, so the issue is the nature of non-deterministic creation, not a limitation on omniscience (God knows all that is knowable, but there are certain things that are not knowable in the future until the contingent choice settles the future).
Don't underestimate God's wisdom, knowledge, power, even without EDF (power is also not identical to knowledge; one can have little power and great knowledge or great power and little knowledge).
God is in control without being all-controlling. EDF offers no providential advantage, so don't hang your hat on a useless myth.
Open thread because you are confusing the unique measures of time after creation (sun, moon, stars, clocks, watches, sundials, hourglasses, etc.) with time itself (which is not dependent on measures and marches on with or without clocks). Time (duration) existed in the uncreated triune relations from eternity past, even before clocks subjectively measured it.
Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:27; Rev. 1:4; Rev. 1:8; verses in Revelation about time in eternity/heaven, etc. are biblical support. Enyart has responded to the few timeless proof texts that say no such thing (I AM does not mean timeless, but eternality, self-existence, etc. An endless time God is as eternal as a timeless one, whatever that would mean).
You really don't get this debate.
I AM is not timeless. Eternal is not timeless. Until you understand major views on this fascinating subject, you should not be simplistic and dogmatic. Augustine was not right about everything.
Totally false accusation/straw man showing you should stick with basket weaving, not theology online.
Your view is Platonic, not biblical. Even classical thinkers like yourself are seeing that impassibility is false, immutability is weak, not strong (God changes in some ways, but not in other ways; incarnation is a profound change in God's triune relations, etc.), etc.
Change does not imply imperfection, but is necessary for a personal being, including God (who is dynamic, Living, not static). His character and attributes do not change, but that does not mean that His knowledge, experiences, relations do not change in any sense. The few immutability proof texts relate to constancy of character, not false Platonic conceptions of the Ideal.
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