Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[Lon]

You need to put a video of a philosopher, not a physicist. The measures of time, subjective perception of time, relativity (difference with general vs special and not applicable to concept of time), physical issues, etc. are not the main issue in time/eternity/God, especially before material creation.

Einstein was not right about everything and his ideas are being challenged today. Time is not a created thing; it is not a 4th dimension; it should not be confused with space; the distinctions between past/present/future should not be blurred, etc.

Endless time vs timelessness views have responded to the misapplication of relativity theory to the philosophical concept of time as duration/sequence/succession (with or without measures of time).

The effect of clocks from gravity, impossible speed of light travel, etc. is a limited, different issue than the conceptual nature of time that theology is interested in.

Philosophy, not science, will settle the real issues for us, God, reality.

As far as I'm concerned, you are shooting blanks. Stick with the book of Revelation Enyart introduced. If it is a literal half an hour as he asserts, it is a literal view then of a future event as well. If there are literal seasons of months, then those too are a literal future that John saw.
John, saying he witnessed the future and time progression in that future automatically means God transcends your conception, and you know it.

I also spoke with you before, that having 'no beginning' means automatically "no time" because in order for time to exist, it has to measure from point A to point B both conceptually and physically: No point A = no concept or measurement of time (no time). God has no beginning. His existence never has a place for us to conceive of time nor an ability for a durative unidirectional understanding. I have no problem with God having a direction with us, I have a problem with you thinking that's His only direction. It is quite logically impossible to assert. Without two points, there is no such thing as duration as a concept/measurement. You have to have a point A for time application.
God does not.

 

[godrulz]

Time is unidirectional. The future is still not yet for God and us. God knows reality as it is. The past is no longer real despite being known fully by God (presentism vs eternalism, A vs B theory of time).

 

[chatmaggot]

Time is unidirectional. The future is still not yet for God and us. God knows reality as it is. The past is no longer real despite being known fully by God (presentism vs eternalism, A vs B theory of time).

I think that's what so many people have a problem with and therefore claim that God is "outside" of time.

I have heard too many times that God is like an observer looking down on a parade that represents all that has happened, is happenning, and will happen. That would mean that the past, present, and future doesn't really exist but rather is an eternal "now" from God's perspective.

For some reason people think that stating that the future is still not yet for God somehow "limits" God or makes God less God.

 

[ghost]

No scripture needed.

Close thread.

This is the mindset of all those who do not know God but who worship and serve a false god in a false religion they call "christianity".

 

[ghost]

Bob's key point that brings a deathblow to all those who pervert the truth, and also what I have pointed out in the past, is that the reason we know with certainty that God is not outside of time is that Jesus became a man. Jesus currently has the nail scars in his hands. He did not have the nail scars in His hands before the incarnation. This was a change that God experienced in our age, and is a reality in the ages to come, that was not a reality for God in eternity past.

 

[Paulos]

The effect of clocks from gravity, impossible speed of light travel, etc. is a limited, different issue than the conceptual nature of time that theology is interested in.

Just because we have not yet developed the technology to travel at the speed of light does not mean that it is theoretically impossible to travel at the speed of light. After all, light travels at the speed of light, so why couldn't we? Certainly, I would imagine that God can travel at the speed of light, and beyond.

In his highly acclaimed television series, astronomer Carl Sagan explained the relative effect that traveling at "nearly the speed of light" has on time:

Cosmos - Speed of Light

 

[Ps82]

I think God was in time as Jesus.

Still, I think God is outside time in some sense.

The scriptures seem to reveal both states are possible somehow.

Scientific evidence of human prescience suggests to me that we have a spiritual component to our soul outside of time.

I agree with your thoughts of God and time.

I also think that in a similar way - while we are appearing on this earth ... we also are spiritually associated with another dimension... the only thing keeping us from immediately appearing in that other dimension presently is our association with (or our being chained to) our physical bodies for the rest of our lives.

What is providing our association to that other realm is the gift of God's spirit IN US unto salvation. BUT all this is another topic.

 

[ghost]

I agree.

I also think that in a similar way - while we are appearing on this earth ... we also are spiritually associated with another dimension... the only thing keeping us from immediately appearing in that other dimension is our association with (our being chained to) our physical body for the rest of our lives.

Jesus has a body now. Jesus did not have body then. God experiences time. Case closed.

 

[Ps82]

Jesus has a body now. Jesus did not have body then. God experiences time. Case closed.

You are correct in one way... for John 1:18 KJF tells us this:
No man at any time hath seen God, the only begotten Son... he (John the B) testified of Him.

This shows that our Lord Jesus showed up as the Savior at a specific time, and that no one had ever seen him before; however, Jesus tells us the rest of the miraculous story.

In John 17:4,5 KJV Jesus tells us that he, being the WORD of God, had shared the glory with the Father before the world was ... and that he wanted that glory back.

Now, understanding what is the glory of God is a key to knowing what the WORD of God, who was manifested as the Lord Jesus, shared with the Father before the world was created. One of the keys to that answer is found in the last half of Exodus 33 and the first part of Exodus 34. It was the GLORY of God that showed up and passed before Moses... and Moses was able to safely look upon the back parts of IT as IT retreated from his sight. It was the visible presence belonging to God. It was this that our Lord Jesus shared with the Father before the world was created.

The invisible God could cause his heavenly super-natural presence to literally appear within the creation when ever he chose and to whom ever he wished. Exodus 24:9,10,11,12 KJV reveals that the body of heaven belonging to God had shown up to 74 men at one time.

It is this body, this image, this glorious presence that existed even before the world was and which was used by God. So God was already within time due to his ability to appear within his own creation even before he created the world as we know it. God can appear with this image in heavenly realms as well as our earthly realm.

Ultimately, it was this same image that God used to also manifest the Savior - while of a lesser glory due to the essence of flesh. Colossians 1:14,15 KJV

The image belonging to God was the firstborn of all creatures.
God used it in the OT and the NT as the Savior.
Isaiah 43:11 KJV
"I (the invisible spiritual God), even I, am the LORD (who appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob); and besides ME (as the invisible God and the appearing LORD) there is no savior."

 

[Nang]

You are correct in one way... for John 1:18 KJF tells us this:
No man at any time hath seen God, the only begotten Son... he (John the B) testified of Him.

This shows that our Lord Jesus showed up as the Savior at a specific time, and that no one had ever seen him before; however, Jesus tells us the rest of the miraculous story.

In John 17:4,5 KJV Jesus tells us that he, being the WORD of God, had shared the glory with the Father before the world was ... and that he wanted that glory back.

Now, understanding what is the glory of God is a key to knowing what the WORD of God, who was manifested as the Lord Jesus, shared with the Father before the world was created. One of the keys to that answer is found in the last half of Exodus 33 and the first part of Exodus 34. It was the GLORY of God that showed up and passed before Moses... and Moses was able to safely look upon the back parts of IT as IT retreated from his sight. It was the visible presence belonging to God. It was this that our Lord Jesus shared with the Father before the world was created.

The invisible God could cause his heavenly super-natural presence to literally appear within the creation when ever he chose and to whom ever he wished. Exodus 24:9,10,11,12 KJV reveals that the body of heaven belonging to God had shown up to 74 men at one time.

It is this body, this image, this glorious presence that existed even before the world was and which was used by God. So God was already within time due to his ability to appear within his own creation even before he created the world as we know it. God can appear with this image in heavenly realms as well as our earthly realm.

Ultimately, it was this same image that God used to also manifest the Savior - while of a lesser glory due to the essence of flesh. Colossians 1:14,15 KJV

The image belonging to God was the firstborn of all creatures.
God used it in the OT and the NT as the Savior.
Isaiah 43:11 KJV
"I (the invisible spiritual God), even I, am the LORD (who appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob); and besides ME (as the invisible God and the appearing LORD) there is no savior."

Ps82,

I find your thoughts commendable and interesting. I would not agree that the "image" of which you speak was created, for the definition of God is uncreate in all ways. But indeed, God decreed and promised a Seed who would incarnate as Mediator between God and man (Genesis 3:15), coming in the image of the Father, so we can know that Jesus Christ, as the only begotten Son of God, was known in the heart and mind of God as the Son of Man, before the foundations of the world.

How to describe this eternal existence is difficult for God being spirit in essence, and not flesh and blood, means that His reality is so different than what we experience in time, that there are no words to explain these marvelous truths.

Paul said this, when he was carried by the Spirit into the third heaven, and witnessed paradise and heard "inexpressible words which it is not lawful for men to utter." II Corinthians 12:1-4

So, as interesting as this subject is as to the pre-incarnate Christ, we must not go further what scripture has revealed . . . and I agree with you that God indeed revealed Jesus in theophanies prior to His incarnation as Savior. . . and we have been told Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. One with Father and Holy Spirit, uncreate and equal in power and glory.

The unfortunate thing about this Enyart article, is his premise that the Son of God taking upon a human form and being born of a woman, in time, means that the incarnation evidenced a CHANGE in God, and therefore, God is not immutable.

Of course, this is not so and is not taught in Holy Scripture at all.

The Son of God added nothing to His Being by coming in human flesh; but rather manifested in time, the purpose, terms, and ramifications of the everlasting Covenant of Redemption, established within the Godhead prior to time and creation.


Revelation is not change. It is manifestation of what IS.

Which means, all the elect sons of God also were known by God in His heart and mind, as surely as Jesus Christ was known by God, prior to creation! We were foreknown and prepared to share in the glory of the everlasting kingdom with Christ. (Proverbs 8:12-31) This is remarkable but hard to express!

Jesus Christ, being one with the Father, is I AM. Whether in time, or in the eternal realms. And His spiritual children are known and found in Him; redeemed in time and saved for everlasting life and glory in His eternal kingdom.

These are such wonderful truths . . . why let others bog us down with their attempts to humanize and limit the attributes and sovereign purposes of our Lord from Heaven?

Nang

 

[sky.]

When Reading in "the Greek" about God and Time, We See that God is:

- timeless,
-in an eternal now,
- not was nor will be but is, and
- has no past
- has no future.

Of course NOT ONE of these phrases are in the Bible. They're from Plato. And they're uncritically repeated by Christians in various systematic theology textbooks.

By "the Greek" there, I meant pagan Greek philosophy (and pagan Hinduism, etc.).]

This is blatantly false. Christians that believe that God is ETERNAL do NOT think God is "in an eternal now" that doesn't even make sense to a Christian. It is however what YOU believe. It is what "Open Theism" teaches and goes directly against the divine attributes of God. You can spin it any way you want but ETERNAL means TIMELESS.

 

[chatmaggot]

This is blatantly false. Christians that believe that God is ETERNAL do NOT think God is "in an eternal now" that doesn't even make sense to a Christian. It is however what YOU believe. It is what "Open Theism" teaches and goes directly against the divine attributes of God. You can spin it any way you want but ETERNAL means TIMELESS.

Do you believe that God sees all of history (past, present, and future) at the same time because God is "outside" of time?

 

[Lighthouse]

I don't know why this is seen that way to you, but at least I can thank you for not calling me an ox or a moron.

before time... if time doesn't exist then there can be no before

before assumes time... oxymoron

Thank you, hoofadoo.

 

[Lighthouse]

This is blatantly false. Christians that believe that God is ETERNAL do NOT think God is "in an eternal now" that doesn't even make sense to a Christian. It is however what YOU believe. It is what "Open Theism" teaches and goes directly against the divine attributes of God. You can spin it any way you want but ETERNAL means TIMELESS.

You clearly don't know what "eternal now" means; it is an expression used to indicate that every moment [now] is, for God, eternity at all times.

 

[Ps82]

Ps82,

I find your thoughts commendable and interesting. I would not agree that the "image" of which you speak was created, for the definition of God is uncreate in all ways. But indeed, God decreed and promised a Seed who would incarnate as Mediator between God and man (Genesis 3:15), coming in the image of the Father, so we can know that Jesus Christ, as the only begotten Son of God, was known in the heart and mind of God as the Son of Man, before the foundations of the world.

How to describe this eternal existence is difficult for God being spirit in essence, and not flesh and blood, means that His reality is so different than what we experience in time, that there are no words to explain these marvelous truths.

Paul said this, when he was carried by the Spirit into the third heaven, and witnessed paradise and heard "inexpressible words which it is not lawful for men to utter." II Corinthians 12:1-4

So, as interesting as this subject is as to the pre-incarnate Christ, we must not go further what scripture has revealed . . . and I agree with you that God indeed revealed Jesus in theophanies prior to His incarnation as Savior. . . and we have been told Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. One with Father and Holy Spirit, uncreate and equal in power and glory.

The unfortunate thing about this Enyart article, is his premise that the Son of God taking upon a human form and being born of a woman, in time, means that the incarnation evidenced a CHANGE in God, and therefore, God is not immutable.

Of course, this is not so and is not taught in Holy Scripture at all.

The Son of God added nothing to His Being by coming in human flesh; but rather manifested in time, the purpose, terms, and ramifications of the everlasting Covenant of Redemption, established within the Godhead prior to time and creation.


Revelation is not change. It is manifestation of what IS.

Which means, all the elect sons of God also were known by God in His heart and mind, as surely as Jesus Christ was known by God, prior to creation! We were foreknown and prepared to share in the glory of the everlasting kingdom with Christ. (Proverbs 8:12-31) This is remarkable but hard to express!

Jesus Christ, being one with the Father, is I AM. Whether in time, or in the eternal realms. And His spiritual children are known and found in Him; redeemed in time and saved for everlasting life and glory in His eternal kingdom.

These are such wonderful truths . . . why let others bog us down with their attempts to humanize and limit the attributes and sovereign purposes of our Lord from Heaven?

Nang

Just one quick comment at this time. In Colossians 1:15 there is a noun - IMAGE and the antecedent of that noun is - (the firstborn of ALL CREATURES.) The antecedent tells us that the IMAGE belonging to God was the first of all creatures. A creature is something that is CREATED.

Case closed.

 

[sky.]

Do you believe that God sees all of history (past, present, and future) at the same time because God is "outside" of time?

Yep, I believe that God has seen every possibility, already.

 

[Paulos]

God does not change

There is some scripture that appears to support that view:


1. Malachi 3:6 says blatantly, "For I am the LORD, I change not".

2. Isaiah 41:4 says that God called forth the generations "from the beginning".

3. James 1:17 may indicate that God does not change ("no variation or shadow of turning").

 

[ghost]

There is some scripture that appears to support that view:


1. Malachi 3:6 says blatantly, "For I am the LORD, I change not".

2. Isaiah 41:4 says that God called forth the generations "from the beginning".

3. James 1:17 may indicate that God does not change ("no variation or shadow of turning").

The context of Malachi will give you a clue.

God became a man. That is a change, unless you believe that God was always a man, which makes you a Mormon.

 

[Ps82]

Hi Nang,
Thank you for reading my post.

You wrote:

I would not agree that the "image" of which you speak was created, for the definition of God is uncreate in all ways.

I'm not sure what you mean by the definition of God is uncreate... but I think I disagree.

You wrote:

But indeed, God decreed and promised a Seed who would incarnate as Mediator between God and man (Genesis 3:15), coming in the image of the Father, so we can know that Jesus Christ, as the only begotten Son of God, was known in the heart and mind of God as the Son of Man, before the foundations of the world.

Yes... and you have written a great truth. The Son would come in the IMAGE of the Father. Is it any wonder that Jesus said: "When you have SEEN ME, you have SEEN the Father."

That's because God already had an IMAGE... and he formed Adam a body after His own image and likeness ... and He gave the promised ONE a body after His own image and likeness as well. Colossians 1:14,15 KJV.

You wrote:

How to describe this eternal existence is difficult for God being spirit in essence, and not flesh and blood, means that His reality is so different than what we experience in time, that there are no words to explain these marvelous truths.

Well the best we can describe the invisible spirit of God is with words like: infinite, eternal, omni-present, life, truth, a creator, etc. I do believe that the ONE spiritual God is outside of time. That's why understanding that He created a bodily form is so key to understanding how He could enter time. It seems from scripture that this original bodily form was super-natural- not of flesh and blood. Exodus 24 calls IT a body of heaven.

You wrote:

Paul said this, when he was carried by the Spirit into the third heaven, and witnessed paradise and heard "inexpressible words which it is not lawful for men to utter." II Corinthians 12:1-4

Yes... While ALL things are IN GOD ... yet he was able to literally enter the creation as well. Now doesn't it make sense when Jesus said: I am IN the Father and (yet) He is IN me.

You wrote:

So, as interesting as this subject is as to the pre-incarnate Christ, we must not go further what scripture has revealed . . . and I agree with you that God indeed revealed Jesus in theophanies prior to His incarnation as Savior. . . and we have been told Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. One with Father and Holy Spirit, uncreate and equal in power and glory.

Yes, we know about the promised "SEED of Woman" (Genesis 3) and about the "exceeding great reward" promised to Abraham. (Genesis 15:1 KJV)

And we know that God told God to arise, judge the world and inherit the nations (Ps 82:8KJV)

We know that when our Lord Jesus, who was God come as the Savior (John 1:1; Isaiah 43:11KJV), finally appeared upon earth with flesh that he said: When you have seen me - you have seen the Father.

Well, the same thing perhaps could have been said about the appearing of the LORD God in the OT. When one had seen the Father LORD, then they had seen the image of the Savior Lord ... It is just that God's image was for the first time ever seen in flesh as our Lord Jesus... which no man had ever seen. That is why John 1:18 KJV says this:
"No one at any time hath seen God, the only begotten son ... he (John the B.) has revealed Him. "

We also know this is the truth - Isaiah 43:11 KJV.

Is it any wonder that our Lord Jesus said:
"The Father and I are ONE."

You wrote:

The Son of God added nothing to His Being by coming in human flesh; but rather manifested in time, the purpose, terms, and ramifications of the everlasting Covenant of Redemption, established within the Godhead prior to time and creation.

I agree with you.

You wrote:

Revelation is not change. It is manifestation of what IS.

I also believe that manifestation is important ... and the answer to "of WHAT" IS - The manifestation of God's literal created image of presence that God used.

You wrote:

Which means, all the elect sons of God also were known by God in His heart and mind, as surely as Jesus Christ was known by God, prior to creation! We were foreknown and prepared to share in the glory of the everlasting kingdom with Christ. (Proverbs 8:12-31) This is remarkable but hard to express!

It seems that you and I are thinking about similar possibilities.

You wrote:
Jesus Christ, being one with the Father, is I AM. Whether in time, or in the eternal realms. And His spiritual children are known and found in Him; redeemed in time and saved for everlasting life and glory in His eternal kingdom.

These are such wonderful truths . . . why let others bog us down with their attempts to humanize and limit the attributes and sovereign purposes of our Lord from Heaven?

Do you realize what you just wrote???
You have identified that you acknowledge the existence of "The LORD from Heaven."
So, who is the LORD ?
The LORD is the ONE God when he manifested His appearance unto the eyes of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Moses. (Exodus 3:6 KJV; Exodus 6:3 KJV)

And what is Heaven?
It is a realm that God created ... It was first called the firmament. You read about it in Genesis 1.

You just wrote that - the God, who was able to appear to the patriarchs, was also the Lord that was in Heaven.

Is it any wonder that Exodus 24:9,10,11,12 KJV called God's presence, which they SAW - The BODY OF HEAVEN in His clearness?

 

[Nang]

Just one quick comment at this time. In Colossians 1:15 there is a noun - IMAGE and the antecedent of that noun is - (the firstborn of ALL CREATURES.) The antecedent tells us that the IMAGE belonging to God was the first of all creatures. A creature is something that is CREATED.

Case closed.

Jesus Christ, being the Person ordained to come in the image of God, remains uncreate. . . even while born of woman, He was conceived by the Spirit of God, alone.

This distinction must be maintained, IMO.

He is the first-born (spiritually resurrected) of all elect and redeemed creatures, in the bodily form of man, but only because He innately also possessed the power and essence (nature) of uncreate God.

Nang