Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[Tambora]

Misconception 2: Time flows from the past into the future. It is often claimed that "Time's arrow points from the past into the future and the current of time flows forward." Yes of course this is a metaphor, yet the widespread metaphor is unintentionally exactly backward of reality. The truth is the reverse, for in whatever way we may speak of time flowing, then time flows backwards.

This may be slightly off topic, but we do consider the future to be in front of us, and the past behind us.

The Hebrew concept was the opposite.

What was in front of you could be seen, and therefore was the past.
What was behind you was unseen, and therefore was the future.

 

[Bob Enyart]

We talk about time - but have we really considered what we are talking about when we talk about motion?

How many levels of whizzing and spinning 'round are we apart of? I don't know. The Monty Python Galaxy Song started me thinking.

Not that Science knows accurately yet all that the song states -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DjMlpTT4nE&feature=related

but it really is a thought provoker when you see how God may have created time -

Hi rainee, from my own back-of-the-envelope calculations I've long claimed that we're moving at about 1.1 million mph, but I've recently seen a more authoritative calculation on wikipedia that we're actually moving at 1.3M mph (taking into account the Sun's orbit, the Milky Way's movement in our local group, etc.). Too cool. I do think, however, that such observations in a discussion about God and time come awfully close to Misconception 1 (just above).

-Bob E.

 

[Ps82]

Hello Bob,
Post 559 was very interesting and enjoyable to read and ponder... almost poetic.

 

[Bob Enyart]

Wow Bob, I have never really thought of it like that. You are so right. :up:

My only question is... how does that misconception effect the debate?

Knight, I think that these two misconceptions together illustrate sloppiness of the popular thoughts about time by Christians.

The quotes on the (wrong) direction of time come from a book by a biblical creationist scientist who I really like, but I modified them a bit so they can't be easily googled, and didn't name him because this confusion is so utterly widespread that I don't want to go on record criticizing him specifically for it. (Perhaps I can find an old-earther to nail for it

So, the only relationship these misconceptions have to this matter of Time is to show how easily we confuse ourselves.

-Bob

 

[Bob Enyart]

Hello Bob,
Post 559 was very interesting and enjoyable to read and ponder... almost poetic.

Wow, thanks Ps82. It's fun, isn't it! The OP on Time is part of many years of reading and thinking about Time that I've been enjoying. I'm currently reading a book by a Cambridge professor called The Future by J.R. Lucas, which is great. (He doesn't point out these two misconceptions though, at least not where I've read so far).
Thanks! -Bob

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Addendum: We human beings have great difficulty thinking even about the more simplistic aspects of time. Consider these corrections to two other popular misconceptions.

Misconception 1: Measurement of time equals time itself. Simply pointing out this nearly ubiquitous error should suffice to correct it. Secular folks and believers alike frequently assume this non sequitur with Christians suggesting that there could be no time prior to the Earth's orbit or it's rotation, with their confusion resulting from an assumption that if man possessed no scale then there could be no mass, or no ruler then there could be no length, or no speedometer then there could be no velocity, or no clock then there could be no time. The measurement of something does not equate to the thing itself, and neither does the ability or lack of ability to measure something equate to that thing.

Misconception 2: Time flows from the past into the future. It is often claimed that "Time's arrow points from the past into the future and the current of time flows forward." Yes of course this is a metaphor, yet the widespread metaphor is unintentionally exactly backward when compared to reality. The truth is the reverse, for in whatever way we may speak of time flowing, then time flows backwards. The current of time brings the future into the present and then to the past. Tomorrow's date, suspended perfectly in the flow of time, will eventually arrive at the present, and recede into the past. Incorrectly men assume that, "the current of time sweeps us from birth to death." But more accurately, the current of time sweeps our entire earthly lives into the past. Time does not carry our birth forward into the future, nor (as it might if time flowed forward) does it forever postpone our death nudging it later and later. Rather, "I" am like a floating buoy anchored to the river bed bobbing and resisting the flow of time. Contrariwise, the "events" that I experience are not similarly anchored and so being vulnerable to the flow of time, as sediment suspended in a river current, they are whisked into the past.

POTD :first:

 

[godrulz]

Time is unidirectional negating the possibility of 'time travel' into the past or future.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Addendum: We human beings have great difficulty thinking even about the more simplistic aspects of time. Consider these corrections to two other popular misconceptions.

Misconception 1: Measurement of time equals time itself. Simply pointing out this nearly ubiquitous error should suffice to correct it. Secular folks and believers alike frequently assume this non sequitur with Christians suggesting that there could be no time prior to the Earth's orbit or it's rotation, with their confusion resulting from an assumption that if man possessed no scale then there could be no mass, or no ruler then there could be no length, or no speedometer then there could be no velocity, or no clock then there could be no time. The measurement of something does not equate to the thing itself, and neither does the ability or lack of ability to measure something equate to that thing.

Misconception 2: Time flows from the past into the future. It is often claimed that "Time's arrow points from the past into the future and the current of time flows forward." Yes of course this is a metaphor, yet the widespread metaphor is unintentionally exactly backward when compared to reality. The truth is the reverse, for in whatever way we may speak of time flowing, then time flows backwards. The current of time brings the future into the present and then to the past. Tomorrow's date, suspended perfectly in the flow of time, will eventually arrive at the present, and recede into the past. Incorrectly men assume that, "the current of time sweeps us from birth to death." But more accurately, the current of time sweeps our entire earthly lives into the past. Time does not carry our birth forward into the future, nor (as it might if time flowed forward) does it forever postpone our death nudging it later and later. Rather, "I" am like a floating buoy anchored to the river bed bobbing and resisting the flow of time. Contrariwise, the "events" that I experience are not similarly anchored and so being vulnerable to the flow of time, as sediment suspended in a river current, they are whisked into the past.

Movement is through space not time.

--Dave

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight, I think that these two misconceptions together illustrate sloppiness of the popular thoughts about time by Christians.

No doubt misconception #1 is a "biggy". You can't swing a dead cat here on TOL without hitting that one. :execute:

Fantastic insight.... thank you!!! :up:

 

[sky.]

Time is unidirectional negating the possibility of 'time travel' into the past or future.

Gee... and I thought God needed a time machine to get things done.

 

[sky.]

No doubt misconception #1 is a "biggy". You can't swing a dead cat here on TOL without hitting that one. :execute:

Fantastic insight.... thank you!!! :up:

uggh! what does Bobs insight have to do with God?

 

[godrulz]

Wow, thanks Ps82. It's fun, isn't it! The OP on Time is part of many years of reading and thinking about Time that I've been enjoying. I'm currently reading a book by a Cambridge professor called The Future by J.R. Lucas, which is great. (He doesn't point out these two misconceptions though, at least not where I've read so far).
Thanks! -Bob

His other book 'A Treatise on Space and Time' has nuggets, but it is mostly over my head (but a definitive study likely supporting your view).

 

[godrulz]

Gee... and I thought God needed a time machine to get things done.

Time travel is an absurdity for God and man. It is logically impossible despite sci-fi speculation.

 

[freelight]

space patterns........

space patterns........

Movement is through space not time.

--Dave

Yes and no - It is thru various movements in space, and of space...that the perception of 'time' comes into view, relating such movements to a continuum of points, where distinctions of past, present and future are 'assumed'.

Continuing from my previous post Here, with our past and current thread links on the subject, I continue to hold 'space' as more fundamental than time, but this is still being researched from difference reference points.

From a purely metaphysical view since all existence, energy, space, time, matter, mind, spirit originates from 'God' or is co-eternal with Infinite Spirit.....there are no objections that 'God' is active in space or time since His omnipresence fills all space and beyond what we know as 'space'. The OP is not so much a 'proof' as it is a proposal that since 'we' are relating to life as a series of events, a sequence of time unfolding, (toss in the 'Incarnation' or other specific passages that show God relating in time)...that 'God' must be experiencing such sequence as well.




pj

 

[chrysostom]

Time travel is an absurdity for God and man. It is logically impossible despite sci-fi speculation.

to say that God is in time is also an absurdity

 

[DFT_Dave]

Yes and no - It is thru various movements in space, and of space...that the perception of 'time' comes into view, relating such movements to a continuum of points, where distinctions of past, present and future are 'assumed'.

Continuing from my previous post Here, with our past and current thread links on the subject, I continue to hold 'space' as more fundamental than time, but this is still being researched from difference reference points.

From a purely metaphysical view since all existence, energy, space, time, matter, mind, spirit originates from 'God' or is co-eternal with Infinite Spirit.....there are no objections that 'God' is active in space or time since His omnipresence fills all space and beyond what we know as 'space'. The OP is not so much a 'proof' as it is a proposal that since 'we' are relating to life as a series of events, a sequence of time unfolding, (toss in the 'Incarnation' or other specific passages that show God relating in time)...that 'God' must be experiencing such sequence as well.

pj

We don't move through "slices" or "frames" of time. If that were the case then we would merely be the 3D projection of God and movement would be an illusion as well as our own existence. That's why space and time are not things. Space is the nothingness where things exist and time is as aspect of those things. God by spirit is something, no-thing, or everything.

If he is outside of things called space and time, and the things in space and time, then he is no-thing. If God is every where in things called space and time, and those things in space and time, then he is indistinguishable from everything. If everything is inside of God and he is at the same time outside of everything then I'm going to throw this computer out the window and head for the beach, can't argue anything if being rational is meaningless. And yet many of you seem to think other wise.

--Dave :surf:

 

[freelight]

allocations......

allocations......

We don't move through "slices" or "frames" of time. If that were the case then we would merely be the 3D projection of God and movement would be an illusion as well as our own existence.

I've agreed that movement involves space and the inter-flux of energy-elements within space and forms that also have their own space-consistency, inter-acting, relating to other movements of space. Remember how we've covered how that 'things' not only 'appear' to take up space', but contain their own 'space-density' as well? Our body for instance has density and form, and 'appears' to take up space, but our body and any form also has its own space as it were (still researching this in studies on the nature of space which I may add as a portal-page in my TOL blog). In any case, time is a relative perception "relating" these movements to which we agree.

That's why space and time are not things.

As concepts I agree they are not 'things' per se (especially 'time' since its a 'perception' relating movements), yet I dont see space as mere nothingness, as there are different kinds of space-density, potency and consistencies, however space acts as an 'energy' or 'wave' medium, having its own native aetheric quality and ability being the essence of which forms derive and in which energy, mind, matter and spirit coalesce.

Space is the nothingness where things exist and time is as aspect of those things.

Again, still researching the fundamental of space (aether and its qualities, configurations, etc.) and yes,..time arises as a 'referential perception' relating movements.

God by spirit is something, no-thing, or everything.

Another wonderful subject and quest-ion. Does 'God' as 'Spirit' have a 'form'? Is there an aspect of Deity that is prior to 'space' and before 'time'? - this is the aspect of 'God' many of us classical-theists hold exists, which is 'God transcendent', while the aspect of God involved within creation is 'God immanent'(pan-en-theism) - while such is speculated and beyond the kin of mortal mind or finite comprehension, we still attribute such a nature to 'God', in his pure absolute Beingness and Infinity. We naturally resign such Ineffable splendor of Mystery to Deity as that which is beyond conception (Para Brahman). - of course Mind is always relating and present with the influx of space-time relationships, as long as such movements are perceived, so on one level the debate over whether God is in time or not is merely 'cosmetic'. - God's omnipresence pervades all space and time anyways. So?

If he is outside of things called space and time, and the things in space and time, then he is no-thing.

That aspect of God that is prior to space and before time would be 'God' as 'No-Thing' (TheOver Soul of Universal Quantum Physics referred to as 'The NO-THING') , since God is not an object, neither corporeal. 'God' is not a 'thing' per se. We must recognize there are various aspects to 'God', in his eternal Being and as 'Spirit' undergoes 'change' or 'transformation' in the world of form, the play of space-time. (see, 'change' or 'transformations' of energy are not denied).

If God is every where in things called space and time, and those things in space and time, then he is indistinguishable from everything.

One can still hold to God's omnipresence (everywhereness) and still not embrace a form of pure pantheism. If God is truly omnipresent and also has his own unique, special and holy 'form' or 'personhood', then we would acknowledge his 'omnipresence' in other ways that qualify as such, while he also retains his 'personal presence' in Paradise or the highest celestial abode. My theology certainly allows for the omni-versatility of 'God' in these various allocations, as optimizing the classical omni's of 'God', even with our limiting conceptions or qualifications of such. Panentheism still to me is the most comprehensive view, allowing for God's immanence and transcendence in all dimensions and beyond.

If everything is inside of God and he is at the same time outside of everything then I'm going to throw this computer out the window and head for the beach, can't argue anything if being rational is meaningless. And yet many of you seem to think other wise.

Before you do anything impulsive (lol), relax that analytical mind of yours for a moment. A panentheistic view allows for 'God' as a divine personality and personal presence to exist as his own 'person'(however thats defined), in his own holy residence or abode and also be omnipresent via his omniscience, all-pervading Spirit-energies, personal abiding presence in the soul, and thru the host of celestial beings and angles that minister thru-out the cosmos. - there are many ways God can be 'omnipresent'. Spirit(energy) is present in all that is 'personal' and 'non-personal' in the cosmos, co-existing and co-mergent with universal consciousness. Panentheism accepts God in all aspects of his omnipresence.


pj

 

[sky.]

to say that God is in time is also an absurdity

Thank you. I didn't think "doof Dave" and "god-doesn't rule" would get it.

 

[Lighthouse]

to say that God is in time is also an absurdity

How so?

Thank you. I didn't think "doof Dave" and "god-doesn't rule" would get it.

You can answer, as well. How is it absurd to say God is in time?

 

[Lon]

I'm not placing God in anything, pure space is not some-thing, it is no-thing or nothingness where things exist distinct and separate from other things. As the Trinity, the Father is something, the Son is another thing, and the Spirit is yet another thing as well. Is a spirit not a thing? A spirit is something, a presence with location in space. What does it mean to be spaceless and timeless?

Right, you have Him existing 'in' something. You cannot conceive of God existing without something to exist "in."

Option A: God has no space and no time and occupies no place in space and is not present at any time in the history of the world.

No, both within and without. I see it as creation only. You see it as an eternal quality co-existent with God.

Option B: God is unbounded by space and time and occupies all of space and is present in all time of the history of the world.

Yep, but uncertain this applies the same to both of us. It seems to me, being "unbounded" carries the idea of agreement, but I know from many conversations, you don't mean literally 'unbound.'

Option C: God has space and time and can occupy any place in space and be present in present time in the history of the world.

Nope, it would make Him contained within something co-eternal with Him. Something would then hold God and He couldn't be certain that there wasn't anything outside of that 'container' to state "I am God and there is none beside me."
​

The Spirit of God moved, in space, located over the face of the earth. Where is the Father and the Son at this time? Is the Spirit in space and time while A. the Father and the Son are no where in space and time, or B. everywhere in space and all of time, or C. located somewhere else in space at the same time?

Similar to the fishbowl illustration we've discussed at length. You are both in and out of the fishbowl at the same time while your hand is in there cleaning it out.

Space and time do not restrict or limit God any more than it does us. We are intrinsically finite, we are limited from within not by what is outside of us, there is only so much we can logically do. God is intrisically infinite, there is nothing logically he cannot do.

Can you grasp all this?

--Dave

Yep, but I'm not certain you've done so to date: I'm incredibly restricted by time and space (disagreement #1). I can't go back to yesterday. I can't skip ahead and give the Apostle John a vision of the future where he can keep time and interact with an elder then. God not only can, but does (disagreement #2).

ps. I want to move this over to my thread, God Time and Space, ok?

No Problem, link please.