Pro-choice? Where do you draw the line?

[Jezebel]

Thank you so much. I enjoy being called a liar. Now dance around that fact, too!

Sorry I just don't.

They're actually very nice apartments, having recently received a face lift. They are every bit as nice as apartments I lived in in my twenties. The woman told my son her apartment was free. She is responsible for the utilities but receives assistance paying them.

So she pays no rent, gets subsidized utilities and just happens to live in a newly renovated apartment? Like I said. I find it really hard to believe.

That's an answer I would expect from a left wing non-believer.

Ok...

Get pregnant, you'll be in like Flynn!

Costs of a kid for 18 years/cons of being a single mother>>welfare benefits

Excuse me? http://kff.org/medicaid/state-indicator/abortion-under-medicaid/

Ever heard of Planned Parenthood's Title X? How about the Family Planning Benefit Program (government assistance).

Yes, having an abortion to facilitate welfare fraud is really stupid but not because it's expensive (between $300 and $850 which a lot of guys are more than willing to pay) but because abortion is a health risk to the mother and murder to the infant. In terms of eternity, it's a big risk for the mother!

Ohio only covers abortions that are rape/health related. And the Title X page only says
" There are a variety of services that Title X health centers may offer"
- Reproductive life / family planning counseling
- Gynecological examinations and basic lab tests
- Breast and cervical cancer screenings
- Contraceptive counseling and supplies/methods
- Testing and treatment for sexually transmitted diseases
- HIV testing and risk reduction counseling
- Pregnancy testing
- General health screenings for high blood pressure, diabetes and anemia
- Community education and outreach

 

[IMJerusha]

I don't think you've done anything wrong to ask forgiveness for. And having an abortion doesn't make you any less a victim, or survivor of rape.

Whether you believe this or not, you and I have a God to answer to. I choose to take that seriously. Abortion is murder. There is no other way to look at it. I committed murder and I needed to confess and repent of my action. So many women aren't told about the repercussion of abortion; how it makes them feel, what it does to them mentally, emotionally and physically. I know now that I could have lived with carrying that baby to term and giving it up for adoption. I couldn't live with my action. I almost didn't. You can say what you want to say. Your words are empty to me.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Glad we're clear with where your concern lies. Not bothering.

Yes, my concern is for our children. Apparently yours is not.

You seem to think that if a person is a victim of a horrible crime (rape) they are entitled to in turn commit a horrible crime themselves, against someone who does not deserve it!

Can you tell me the logic behind murdering a child in retribution for a crime some other man committed? That would be like you rear-ending my car, and in response I get out of my car and start beating the crap out of your kid!!!

The child of the rapist did nothing!! The child is innocent. Punish the rapist, not the clueless child!

 

[PureX]

Your poll vote is one reason:

When should abortion be a legal option?​

For any reason, but only up to a certain period during pregnancy
alwight, Balerion the Black, gcthomas, Greenrage, illusionray, Paulos, pqmomba8, PureX, quip, rexlunae, Sitamun, The Horn, xAvarice

You seem to think abortion should be against the law after a certain point. At least you did when you voted on the poll .

I agree with the fact that it is not legal after a certain point. There's a difference.

Backtrack all you want. You don't have to be "ruler of mankind" to have an opinion, PureX

No, but when you want to make everyone else comply with that opinion ... And I can't help but notice that no one here seems to want to address that aspect of the issue, when it's really that aspect of the issue that's at the heart of the debate, and NOT whether it's right or wrong.

 

[IMJerusha]

Sorry I just don't.

Tough!

Costs of a kid for 18 years/cons of being a single mother>>welfare benefits

You obviously don't really know how much a single mother can receive in food, medical and monetary benefit.

Ohio only covers abortions that are rape/health related. And the Title X page only says
" There are a variety of services that Title X health centers may offer"
- Reproductive life / family planning counseling
- Gynecological examinations and basic lab tests
- Breast and cervical cancer screenings
- Contraceptive counseling and supplies/methods
- Testing and treatment for sexually transmitted diseases
- HIV testing and risk reduction counseling
- Pregnancy testing
- General health screenings for high blood pressure, diabetes and anemia
- Community education and outreach

Uh huh, so? As far as abortion is concerned, I wasn't referring to Ohio only. Ohio is a fairly conservative state. Take a look at New York's Planned Parenthood: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ppcwny/about-our-fees-28549.htm New York is a liberal state.
Also, don't negate the willingness of men to pay for abortions outright.

The examples I gave you in regard to the welfare and Medicaid benefits are Ohio residents, however.

 

[Jezebel]

Whether you believe this or not, you and I have a God to answer to. I choose to take that seriously. Abortion is murder. There is no other way to look at it. I committed murder and I needed to confess and repent of my action. So many women aren't told about the repercussion of abortion; how it makes them feel, what it does to them mentally, emotionally and physically. I know now that I could have lived with carrying that baby to term and giving it up for adoption. I couldn't live with my action. I almost didn't. You can say what you want to say. Your words are empty to me.

I hate that you feel that way but you have every right to. But that doesn't mean you speak for other people who have had abortions or what others would feel if they had an abortion.

 

[drbrumley]

I agree with the fact that it is not legal after a certain point. There's a difference.
No, but when you want to make everyone else comply with that opinion ... And I can't help but notice that no one here seems to want to address that aspect of the issue, when it's really that aspect of the issue that's at the heart of the debate, and NOT whether it's right or wrong.

There are laws against murder So no one can murder. But people still do murder. Should people COMPLY (make everyone) with laws against murder?

 

[PureX]

There are laws against murder So no one can murder. But people still do murder. Should people COMPLY (make everyone) with laws against murder?

What does this have to do with wanting to force other people to comply with our opinions about what they should believe and do?

 

[Jezebel]

Tough!

Ok.

You obviously don't really know how much a single mother can receive in food, medical and monetary benefit.

Doesn't matter. Benefits don't account for actually having to take care of a child. Kids want nice clothes, lots of toys, they want to play sports or go to dance class. Go on vacation. Sometimes they're bad at school and want private tutoring. They get older and want to get hair/nails done. They want cellphones, Ipads, Iphones, laptops. They want cars when they turn 16 and eventually they go to college. This adds up over the years and you know it because you had a kid.

Unless people are okay with raising their kids on a horrible standard of living, welfare doesn't come close to enough.

Uh huh, so? As far as abortion is concerned, I wasn't referring to Ohio only. Ohio is a fairly conservative state. Take a look at New York's Planned Parenthood: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ppcwny/about-our-fees-28549.htm New York is a liberal state.
Also, don't negate the willingness of men to pay for abortions outright.

The examples I gave you in regard to the welfare and Medicaid benefits are Ohio residents, however

Okay so the pathology lab was in New York?

Did these women tell you they were having multiple abortions because of welfare benefits?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

What does this have to do with wanting to force other people to comply with our opinions about what they should think and do?

This has nothing to do with wanting to force other people to comply with our opinions. It has to do with murdering innocent human beings.

As I have said before, the big problem with this discussion is that it always revolves around legal decisions and not scientific fact. Scientifically, the "fetus" is a human being: He/She has human blood, human flesh, human DNA, which makes him or her human; not a dog, not a cat, not a bird, but human. And when he or she is sucked through a vacuum tube and destroyed, what has just been destroyed is a human life. That is science. That is fact. But what is all too often being focused on instead though is the "legalisms" of "personhood", whether or not the child in the womb is legally a person. Does anyone know what is wrong with that? What is wrong with that is, that is what was done to the slaves. Their blood and DNA were human too, scientifically they were human beings like anybody else, but the law denied them personhood, and that is what is being done here too. Today, just as then, the law flies in the face of scientific fact.

Abortion is the destruction of human life. Thats science. Supreme Court justces are not scientists. It is also a fact that the DNA of the child in the womb is unique and different from the mother's DNA, which b1ows out of the water the argument that "I can do what I want with my body", because its not the woman's body, it is an entirely seperate person, with the right to life.

 

[Jezebel]

Yes, my concern is for our children. Apparently yours is not.

Nope my concern is with rape victims. Apparently yours is not.

You seem to think that if a person is a victim of a horrible crime (rape) they are entitled to in turn commit a horrible crime themselves, against someone who does not deserve it![/QUOTE]
The horrible crime against themselves would be being forced to incubate their rapist child against their will.

Can you tell me the logic behind murdering a child in retribution for a crime some other man committed? That would be like you rear-ending my car, and in response I get out of my car and start beating the crap out of your kid!!!

Yes, rape is exactly like a car accident and all women have abortions to punish their rapists.

The child of the rapist did nothing!! The child is innocent. Punish the rapist, not the clueless child!

The rape victim did nothing. She doesn't owe the child anything. She certainly doesn't owe it her body.

 

[WizardofOz]

Legally, she should never have to give up her bodily autonomy in favor of the fetus. I proposed the solution below as the middle ground

These are two mutually exclusive statements. If a woman should never have to legally give up her bodily autonomy then you offer no middle ground as any woman could get an abortion anytime and for any reason.

That's my issue. Forced pregnancy. To me it's no different then forced organ donation.

Maybe to you but it is very, very different for anyone who has given such comparisons more than a passing glance.

No. My belief is that a woman is not legally obligated to share her body with a fetus, because people aren't legally entitled to other people's bodies.

That may be your personal belief but legally speaking, you're wrong. She is legally obligated after week X.

You feel she should not be but she is.

So if the fetus is removed alive then that's not really a violation of her rights being that hospitals do override people's wishes. She's not being forced to sustain the fetus and doesn't lose her bodily autonomy.

So if a woman goes in for an abortion, the doctor should be able to say "OK but we're keeping the fetus alive against your wishes."?

Are you familiar with the procedure for late term abortions? She's going to "give birth" regardless.

Force her to give birth as in force her to go through labor and give birth to a living baby. Should a hospital be able to force her if the fetus is viable?

why is it okay if there is a medical need?

Medical necessity as in they will both die without intervention.

Nope you're not getting out of this one. I answered all your questions directly so you could return the favor.

I am not sure how the quote is unclear. The charge/punishment would defend on the jurisdiction that the woman or abortionist lives in.

I asked you what you yourself think the charges sentencing should be for a woman that has an abortion. You're the one handing down the sentence. Not the state.

The charge would be feticide. "Unlawful abortion may be considered "feticide", even if the pregnant woman consents to the abortion." The sentence would depend on a variety of other factors.

How would you logically have lesser charges for the woman without being hypocritical?

Because she is not the one performing the procedure. Without the abortionist* there is no abortion.

*Even if it's the woman giving herself an abortion

The party directly responsible for the death would hold the most guilty, legally speaking.

 

[WizardofOz]

So?

The narrow focus of your poll simply asked for our opinions. That doesn't imply that our views represent the views of millions of others. Again, you're conflating personal moral views with objective legal views...that (potentially) affect everyone.

basically you could read our answers as being:"In a perfect rational world (regarding abortion/contraception) we would choose a relevant abortion law that would allow abortion for any reason up to a certain period 'X'." Of course, we don't live in such a world while 'X' is up for debate...and, as such, personal liberties trump mere opinion.

You're overreaching upon our intent with your overzealous poll.

PureX?

 

[Jezebel]

This has nothing to do with wanting to force other people to comply with our opinions. It has to do with murdering innocent human beings.

As I have said before, the big problem with this discussion is that it always revolves around legal decisions and not scientific fact. Scientifically, the "fetus" is a human being: He/She has human blood, human flesh, human DNA, which makes him or her human; not a dog, not a cat, not a bird, but human. And when he or she is sucked through a vacuum tube and destroyed, what has just been destroyed is a human life. That is science. That is fact. But what is all too often being focused on instead though is the "legalisms" of "personhood", whether or not the child in the womb is legally a person. Does anyone know what is wrong with that? What is wrong with that is, that is what was done to the slaves. Their blood and DNA were human too, scientifically they were human beings like anybody else, but the law denied them personhood, and that is what is being done here too. Today, just as then, the law flies in the face of scientific fact.

Abortion is the destruction of human life. Thats science. Supreme Court justces are not scientists. It is also a fact that the DNA of the child in the womb is unique and different from the mother's DNA, which b1ows out of the water the argument that "I can do what I want with my body", because its not the woman's body, it is an entirely seperate person, with the right to life.

The irony of comparing abortion to slavery when overwhelmingly the slave states of yesterday are anti abortion today and the Catholic church and many Catholic countries had a very large hand in the slave trade.

How can arguing on the basis of bodily autonomy be an argument in favor of slavery. Personhood is one argument of some pro choice people.

 

[Rusha]

When it comes to abortion, the baby is the victim.

Just because a woman is a victim of a terrible crime does not give her the right to murder an innocent child.

What sort of woman would murder an innocent baby?

Glad we're clear with where your concern lies. Not bothering.

Considering his response was spot on, you have no valid response to *bother* with.

Being violated and living through such a horrendous experience does not give the victim a valid excuse to violate, victimize and intentionally kill her unborn baby.

The only innocent victim in such a scenario is the unborn baby.

 

[oatmeal]

If you believe abortion should be legal, do you believe it should be legal for the duration of pregnancy or is there some cutoff point after which you feel it should no longer be a legal option?

If you choose an option that includes "up to a certain period during pregnancy", please explain where this distinction should be made and why.

I'd like to keep posts limited to those who consider themselves pro-choice for at least the first page or two.

If I missed an option, let me know!

Since man does not become a living soul until first breath, abortion is not murder, as some well meaning but emotion driven Christians like to think.

Genesis 2:7

1. When does a woman need to decide that she needs to have an abortion? At the last minute? I think not. She should have decided long before that.

2. Since many premature babies do well, the time allowed should be before that time when premature babies could do well.

 

[drbrumley]

What does this have to do with wanting to force other people to comply with our opinions about what they should believe and do?

That went right over your head. We DO THIS already with the crime of murder.

 

[IMJerusha]

I hate that you feel that way but you have every right to. But that doesn't mean you speak for other people who have had abortions or what others would feel if they had an abortion.

Have you experienced an abortion?

 

[WizardofOz]

I agree with the fact that it is not legal after a certain point. There's a difference.

That's not what the question asked. This isn't a quiz about abortion law.

If you agree that abortion should be legal for any reason, but only up to a certain period during pregnancy then you agree that it should be illegal after that point.

Who are you to impose this belief? Because guess what, you are doing just as much imposing for your position as I am for mine. You don't think abortion should be legal after point X. Therefore, you are imposing your belief on woman who want to abort after point X.

How does your point about imposing opinions not apply to you?

No, but when you want to make everyone else comply with that opinion ...

Do you not want all women to comply with your opinion? Should they not follow the law that you condone?

And I can't help but notice that no one here seems to want to address that aspect of the issue, when it's really that aspect of the issue that's at the heart of the debate, and NOT whether it's right or wrong.

I don't see anyone here as not wanting to address any aspect of the debate. What makes you say no one does? :idunno:

I am up for addressing all aspects of the topic so perhaps your assumption is a bit premature.

 

[drbrumley]

Since man does not become a living soul until first breath, abortion is not murder, as some well meaning but emotion driven Christians like to think.

Genesis 2:7

1. When does a woman need to decide that she needs to have an abortion? At the last minute? I think not. She should have decided long before that.

2. Since many premature babies do well, the time allowed should be before that time when premature babies could do well.

Apples to Oranges Oatmeal.....