Pro-choice? Where do you draw the line?

[IMJerusha]

Being violated and living through such a horrendous experience does not give the victim a valid excuse to violate, victimize and intentionally kill her unborn baby.

Amen!

The only innocent victim in such a scenario is the unborn baby.

Absolutely! The moment a woman decides to murder her child, she ceases being a victim and becomes a perp.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

......women have abortions to punish their rapists.......

That is sick and perverted. You are in the realm of darknness. May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[WizardofOz]

Since man does not become a living soul until first breath, abortion is not murder, as some well meaning but emotion driven Christians like to think.

Genesis 2:7

This argument fails as Adam was never in the womb. Should all abortion be legal regardless of circumstance or length of pregnancy?

1. When does a woman need to decide that she needs to have an abortion? At the last minute? I think not. She should have decided long before that.

Either your first breath argument is a red herring or the above is irrelevant.

2. Since many premature babies do well, the time allowed should be before that time when premature babies could do well.

And after that abortion should be illegal?

 

[WizardofOz]

What does this have to do with wanting to force other people to comply with our opinions about what they should believe and do?

Are you really this wishy-washy? You think abortion should be illegal after week X but it's really none of your business if a woman aborts after week X....

If everyone lacked courage behind their conviction as you do, what's the point of having any abortion laws at all? :idunno:

 

[Jezebel]

These are two mutually exclusive statements. If a woman should never have to legally give up her bodily autonomy then you offer no middle ground as any woman could get an abortion anytime and for any reason.

No, that's your own personal opinion. You keep saying there is no middle ground because you don't want there to be. You know that most people have no problem with early term abortions, so you want to force all pro choice people to defend late term abortions in hopes of turning people pro life.

I personally have no qualms with late term abortion for other people. I don't care. But I'm not stupid enough to think that most people would agree to that, so the proposed solution would allow women to keep their bodily autonomy, and not have to act as a life support system against their will. That's what's most important to me.

Maybe to you but it is very, very different for anyone who has given such comparisons more than a passing glance.

Elaborate.

That may be your personal belief but legally speaking, you're wrong. She is legally obligated after week X.

You feel she should not be but she is.

That depends on the state. Some states have no limit on abortion.

So if a woman goes in for an abortion, the doctor should be able to say "OK but we're keeping the fetus alive against your wishes."?

Yes, because that wouldn't violate her rights to bodily autonomy.

Force her to give birth as in force her to go through labor and give birth to a living baby. Should a hospital be able to force her if the fetus is viable?

She'll give birth regardless. I've already answered this question. If they can remove the fetus alive then they can do so as long as it presents no added risks to the mother.

Medical necessity as in they will both die without intervention.

What if only the mother will die?

I am not sure how the quote is unclear. The charge/punishment would defend on the jurisdiction that the woman or abortionist lives in.

I'm not asking about Ron Paul's opinion. I'm asking about yours and what punishments you would like to see handed down to women that have abortions. Yet you can't even give me a straight answer or max/min prison term limit.

The charge would be feticide. "Unlawful abortion may be considered "feticide", even if the pregnant woman consents to the abortion." The sentence would depend on a variety of other factors.

Why not premeditated murder? What factors would the sentence depend on?

Will it still be feticide if the pregnancy is not yet in the fetal stage? What if she's only 4 weeks pregnant?

Because she is not the one performing the procedure. Without the abortionist* there is no abortion.

*Even if it's the woman giving herself an abortion

The party directly responsible for the death would hold the most guilty, legally speaking.

So why is it that when a person hires a contract killer both are charged with murder?

 

[quip]

PureX?

dodge?

 

[Rusha]

I personally have no qualms with late term abortion for other people.

Why only for other people?

 

[Jezebel]

Considering his response was spot on, you have no valid response to *bother* with.

Being violated and living through such a horrendous experience does not give the victim a valid excuse to violate, victimize and intentionally kill her unborn baby.

The only innocent victim in such a scenario is the unborn baby.

It does mean she has no obligations toward to embryo whatsoever and that she is not obligated to sustain it with her body.

But it's good to know that after a rape if a victim has an abortion she suddenly loses her "innocence".

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Originally Posted by Jezebel
I personally have no qualms with late term abortion for other people.

That is pure evil; killing a fully grown baby.

I have to put you on ignore. I can't look upon that sort of darkness.

 

[Jezebel]

Why only for other people?

Because I wouldn't want to have one myself, but I don't care if other people do.

 

[drbrumley]

Because I wouldn't want to have one myself, but I don't care if other people do.

Translated:

You personally wouldn't kill a million Jews, but you could care less if Hitler would.....

 

[Rusha]

It does mean she has no obligations toward to embryo whatsoever and that she is not obligated to sustain it with her body.

Your position is legally correct ... and morally corrupt. Nine whole stinkin' months to give birth to her innocent child who she never has to see again.

But it's good to know that after a rape if a victim has an abortion she suddenly loses her "innocence".

How special that you feel any of this is good. Innocent men and women do NOT intentionally kill their unborn or born children.

You know full well that the other alternative allows BOTH to live rather than snuffing out the life of one on the altar of convenience. Your are putting your stamp of approval for a rape victim to become exactly what she claims to hate: an abusive violator.

 

[Rusha]

Because I wouldn't want to have one myself, but I don't care if other people do.

Why wouldn't you want to have one yourself?

 

[resurrected]

I personally have no qualms with late term abortion for other people. I don't care.

how about infanticide?

....what punishments you would like to see handed down to women that have abortions.

death penalty for premeditated murder

 

[Jezebel]

Your position is legally correct ... and morally corrupt. Nine whole stinkin' months to give birth to her innocent child who she never has to see again.

Time lengths don't change people's rights to their bodies. Nor do they make traumatic experiences better. A rape could take only 3 minutes. But it's still infinitely more traumatizing and life ruining than say, getting the flu even though that takes days.

I don't know why people say "it's only nine months" as if that makes it better.

How special that you feel any of this is good. Innocent men and women do NOT intentionally kill their unborn or born children.

So you agree with statement then.

You know full well that the other alternative allows BOTH to live rather than snuffing out the life of one on the altar of convenience. Your are putting your stamp of approval for a rape victim to become exactly what she claims to hate: an abusive violator.

I'd rather die then give birth to my rapists baby. I personally think that is the ultimate degradation after a rape. I have entirely too much pride and self esteem for that. It's about my sanity and mental well being.

 

[Jezebel]

how about infanticide?

An infant doesn't infringe on your bodily autonomy and rights to ownership over your body. You can easily surrender them for adoption without health risks and damage to your body.

death penalty for premeditated murder

How many pro life people in this thread agree?

 

[Jezebel]

Why wouldn't you want to have one yourself?

Because I would feel uncomfortable about aborting my fetus at a late stage of pregnancy.

 

[resurrected]

An infant doesn't infringe on your bodily autonomy and rights to ownership over your body. You can easily surrender them for adoption without health risks and damage to your body.

what if it's just more convenient?

 

[IMJerusha]

Doesn't matter. Benefits don't account for actually having to take care of a child. Kids want nice clothes, lots of toys, they want to play sports or go to dance class. Go on vacation. Sometimes they're bad at school and want private tutoring. They get older and want to get hair/nails done. They want cellphones, Ipads, Iphones, laptops. They want cars when they turn 16 and eventually they go to college. This adds up over the years and you know it because you had a kid.

You sound like a perfect example of what's wrong with many parents today. My Mom used to say, "you can want til the cows come home, you'll get what Dad and I can afford." That often meant hand me downs, an adequate amount of toys, Girl Scouts, and annual vacations although that amounted to visits to Jones Beach or Coney Island. I raised my son the same way. Cellphones, ipads, iphones, laptops? No child has any business with those items until they're in high school. My son paid for his first car and every car thereafter with his own money and he didn't get his license until he was 17. His first college degree was earned while he was still in high school and there was no charge for his post-secondary education. His second degree he is paying for himself.

Unless people are okay with raising their kids on a horrible standard of living, welfare doesn't come close to enough.

It's plenty as long as you're not spoiling your children.

Okay so the pathology lab was in New York?

No, but what difference does that make? There are 15 states that provide Medicaid assistance for abortion. Planned Parenthood also provides financial assistance. My point is that financial assistance is available.

Did these women tell you they were having multiple abortions because of welfare benefits?

You're confused, and perhaps that's the fault of the way I posted. The repeated names coming across my desk on pathology reports back in 1976 is what started me wondering what was going on especially since they all came out of the same abortion clinic. Through the years, I have unfortunately been privy to many women explaining welfare manipulation to me, what they call gaming the system, pregnancy and abortion being what they deem a lucrative way of staying on the receiving end of government assistance. I don't know why you're so shocked about this. Welfare fraud is rampant.

 

[IMJerusha]

Yes, rape is exactly like a car accident and all women have abortions to punish their rapists.

No, it's not and no, they don't.