Pro-choice? Where do you draw the line?

[WizardofOz]

You aren't God or the Supreme Court, either. So why do you think you should be allowed to impose your beliefs and opinions about it on others?

Should all abortion be legal, regardless of length of pregnancy?

Unless your answer is "yes" you can ask yourself the exact same question. Why do you think you should be allowed to impose your beliefs and opinions about it on a woman who is 8 months pregnant?

 

[Jezebel]

Only for the mother and father ... NEVER for the unborn baby. Who, BTW, was conceived by no fault of their own.

The woman has no obligation to sustain the "unborn baby" with her body if she doesn't want to.

 

[WizardofOz]

The woman has no obligation to sustain the "unborn baby" with her body if she doesn't want to.

If she is 8 months pregnant does she have an obligation to sustain the
"unborn baby" with her body if she doesn't want to? :think:

 

[Rusha]

The woman has no obligation to sustain the "unborn baby" with her body if she doesn't want to.

Of course not. That is what all selfish women claim. I mean, it's not like she and the father did anything to introduce that life into the world, huh? It's the babies fault ... or the fault of the Pregnancy Leprachaun for impregnating women against their will.

You do realize that it is entirely possible to remain pregnancy free, correct?

 

[Jezebel]

No problem :e4e:



But you would have one at 8 months if the pregnancy was a result of rape. What about at 7 months....6....5? Where do you become uncomfortable?

I personally would not have an abortion after 12 weeks unless rape.

Also, I had to review how this line of discussion began. Please address the original question: If a woman is 8 months pregnant, she should be able to walk into a Planned Parenthood and have her baby killed?

Legally? Yes.

What if she doesn't want to keep the baby alive? Should it be up to her if the fetus lives or dies at 8 months?

It depends. Will keeping it alive vs aborting cause extra health risks for her? Then yes. If not then I don't see why killing it is necessary. Simply removing it alive doesn't remove her bodily autonomy like forcing her to incubate it does.

I am talking about the law. I am not asking about most pro-choicers as their opinions will likely be all over the place.

Legally, I don't think there should be a limit on abortions, unless as I said before, you can remove it without complications to the mother.

So if actively killing fetuses was banned but you could remove them at any stage of pregnancy? Would you be okay with that?

Well, then she was the one performing the abortion and my answer would then apply to her.

Then what should her charges/sentencing be? Life in prison? Death penalty? If she's a juvenile should she be tried as an adult?
What if she had an abortion because of health risks/sexual assault?

How could you punish a woman that self aborts but not a woman that pays someone to abort for her? If abortion should be illegal and considered murder, than she's no different then a person hiring a hit man no?

 

[Jezebel]

If she is 8 months pregnant does she have an obligation to sustain the
"unborn baby" with her body if she doesn't want to? :think:

No.

 

[IMJerusha]

This doesn't explain why "believers" get to impose their beliefs on everyone else.

Believers can't impose their beliefs on anyone. By virtue of God's Word, however, believers can and should expect a common understanding and obedience to God within the Body. Outside of the Body of believers is the world we're not supposed to be of, only in.

 

[PureX]

Should all abortion be legal, regardless of length of pregnancy?

Unless your answer is "yes" you can ask yourself the exact same question. Why do you think you should be allowed to impose your beliefs and opinions about it on a woman who is 8 months pregnant?

You're apparently not reading my posts. My belief is that abortion is wrong. So I am clearly not imposing my beliefs on anyone.

As to the current laws, those have been decided by a social process that hopefully represents the majority of our citizens on this issue. And I more or less agree that women should be allowed to choose for themselves what's going to happen inside their own bodies. Although I feel they should do so within a short number of days from the time they learn that they are pregnant. Perhaps 30 days, at most. I just don't see any reason for late term abortions unless they're medical reasons.

 

[IMJerusha]

Of course not. That is what all selfish women claim. I mean, it's not like she and the father did anything to introduce that life into the world, huh? It's the babies fault ... or the fault of the Pregnancy Leprachaun for impregnating women against their will.

You do realize that it is entirely possible to remain pregnancy free, correct?

That's not popular. We've got government assistance agents informing women that they would get more assistance if they were pregnant or had children. In my county, women are encouraged to become pregnant outside of wedlock. They are told that they will receive housing, food and totally paid healthcare. Do you have any idea how many women get pregnant for the sole purpose of receiving government freebies? Then they abort and start the process all over again. They only keep the child if it will gain them some additional benefit.

 

[PureX]

Believers can't impose their beliefs on anyone. By virtue of God's Word, however, believers can and should expect a common understanding and obedience to God within the Body. Outside of the Body of believers is the world we're not supposed to be of, only in.

Then it sounds to me like you should be campaigning against abortion in your church, and leave the general public to decide for themselves.

 

[Rusha]

That's not popular. We've got government assistance agents informing women that they would get more assistance if they were pregnant or had children. In my county, women are encouraged to become pregnant outside of wedlock. They are told that they will receive housing, food and totally paid healthcare. Do you have any idea how many women get pregnant for the sole purpose of receiving government freebies? Then they abort and start the process all over again. They only keep the child if it will gain them some additional benefit.

How can anyone get assistance for an aborted baby? Does the state step in and help women in crisis pregnancies with medical? Certainly ... however, I do not believe women go around getting pregnant so they can receive medical coverage and other aid IF they are planning to abort.

This is about not being responsible to take precautions against pregnancy UNTIL after the pregnancy happens. Abortion is their birth control.

 

[IMJerusha]

Then it sounds to me like you should be campaigning against abortion in your church, and leave the general public to decide for themselves.

What need have I to campaign against abortion in my congregation? As I stated, if one is a Christian, one does not believe in abortion for any reason. They can't and still be a believer.

I don't know where you live but I live in a democracy called the United States. As a citizen, I have the right to vote according to my beliefs. As a citizen, I have the right to free speech according to my beliefs. Is there a reason why I should ignore these rights, if by exercising them I can change a course of action from evil to good?

 

[Jezebel]

How do we get rid of the need?

I think the three biggest things are sex education, better social safety nets, and contraception.

Abstinence only education should be done away with completely. The states with the worst teen pregnancy rates tend to have it(New Mexico, Mississippi etc) have it while the states with the best (New Hampshire, Minnesota) don't. Now, teenagers account for only 6.4% of abortions but many women have repeat abortions and hopefully teenagers that are responsible about sex will continue throughout their lives.

One of the biggest links between abortion and pregnancy is poverty not legality. Women are just as likely to have abortions in countries where it is outlawed. Women with incomes under the poverty line account for 42% of abortions. From 2000 to 2008 abortions declined across the board for every group except poor women. For poor women they rose 18%. 75% of women that chose abortion cited their inability to care for a child. I think there should be more support in place for single mothers especially students. Daycare vouchers, mandated paid maternity leave and better maternal health coverage(thanks obamacare) to start with.

Probably the most effective at reducing abortions is widespread contraception. First off I think the pill/patches/rings should be done away with unless absolutely necessary. There is just to much room for error. Most people don't take daily medications or like they should and aren't as vigilant with their patches/rings. IUD's and implants have an almost flawless success rate. 0.3 for every 100 women. There was actually a controlled study done on this in St. Louis and abortion and unplanned pregnancy rates fell dramatically. You can see this on an international level as well. Western Europe has the lowest abortion rate in the world but they have legal abortion. They also have widespread contraception use and a higher usage rate of IUD's and implants.

The abortion debate will always be around no matter what. Abortion has been legal then illegal all throughout history. The only way to make the debate go away completely is to virtual eliminate unplanned pregnancy once and for all. It's something that both groups could get behind and is statistically much more effective, leads to a lot less dead or imprisoned women, and a lot less abortions.

For info on some of the things I talked about:

St.Louis study and the effectiveness of IUD's and implants
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/10/29/iud-implants-birth-control/1644647/

Abortion laws being ineffective

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21255186/#.UtRiCH7nZy0

IUD usage in Europe vs America

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/09/why-are-iuds-unpopular

Abortion and Poverty
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news...cline-overall-but-increase-in-poor/47506252/1
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

 

[IMJerusha]

How can anyone get assistance for an aborted baby? Does the state step in and help women in crisis pregnancies with medical? Certainly ... however, I do not believe women go around getting pregnant so they can receive medical coverage and other aid IF they are planning to abort.

This is about not being responsible to take precautions against pregnancy UNTIL after the pregnancy happens. Abortion is their birth control.

They don't get assistance for the aborted baby. They get assistance for being pregnant. Following abortion, they report the loss of the baby. Their assistance is decreased. A month or two later, they appeal the decrease citing pregnancy again and their assistance is increased. It's a racket and I've witnessed it!

 

[Jezebel]

Of course not. That is what all selfish women claim.
I mean, it's not like she and the father did anything to introduce that life into the world, huh? It's the babies fault ... or the fault of the Pregnancy Leprachaun for impregnating women against their will.

So if it's not the woman's "fault" then her abortion should be legal? If not then that really is a red herring on your part.

You do realize that it is entirely possible to remain pregnancy free, correct?

Clearly, being that I've never been pregnant. The snarkiness really isn't necessary.

 

[xAvarice]

Should all abortion be legal, regardless of length of pregnancy?

Unless your answer is "yes" you can ask yourself the exact same question. Why do you think you should be allowed to impose your beliefs and opinions about it on a woman who is 8 months pregnant?

He's not imposing it. He's saying that it shouldn't be banned. If a woman doesn't agree with him - it will make no difference in her life.

 

[Jezebel]

That's not popular. We've got government assistance agents informing women that they would get more assistance if they were pregnant or had children. In my county, women are encouraged to become pregnant outside of wedlock. They are told that they will receive housing, food and totally paid healthcare. Do you have any idea how many women get pregnant for the sole purpose of receiving government freebies? Then they abort and start the process all over again. They only keep the child if it will gain them some additional benefit.

I'm sorry but I find this extremely hard to believe. It's like a paraphrase of the welfare queen stereotype that has become so popular. I don't know what state you're in, but I know plenty of people on public assistance and none are living fabulous lives. I'm the child of a lower class single mother who gets no assistance whatsoever and we still have a better standard of living than all of them.

 

[PureX]

What need have I to campaign against abortion in my congregation? As I stated, if one is a Christian, one does not believe in abortion for any reason. They can't and still be a believer.

I don't know where you live but I live in a democracy called the United States. As a citizen, I have the right to vote according to my beliefs. As a citizen, I have the right to free speech according to my beliefs. Is there a reason why I should ignore these rights, if by exercising them I can change a course of action from evil to good?

Fortunately, you don't live in a democracy. You live in a limited constitutional democratic republic, wherein the majority does not always get to dictate to the minority, because the rights of individuals trump the desires of the group.

 

[WizardofOz]

My belief is that abortion is wrong. So I am clearly not imposing my beliefs on anyone.

As to the current laws, those have been decided by a social process that hopefully represents the majority of our citizens on this issue. And I more or less agree that women should be allowed to choose for themselves what's going to happen inside their own bodies. Although I feel they should do so within a short number of days from the time they learn that they are pregnant. Perhaps 30 days, at most. I just don't see any reason for late term abortions unless they're medical reasons.

Do you, PureX, feel that a woman should be able to legally abort at anytime during her pregnancy? Should they be illegal at any point during any given pregnancy?

I know how laws are made. I am asking you what you feel the law should be in regard to abortion. :e4e:

 

[PureX]

Do you, PureX, feel that a woman should be able to legally abort at anytime during her pregnancy? Should they be illegal at any point during any given pregnancy?

I, PureX, believe that it is not my place to decide for the rest of humanity what should or should not be legal for them to do. And I don't understand why you can't seem to understand this.

Human beings join together to create societies, and as they do so, they decide for themselves how those societies will function. They will not ask me to tell them how they should live, and if I try, they will likely fight my attempts to do so, as well they should.

No one has appointed me the ruler of mankind. And I have no desire to appoint myself the ruler of mankind. So I don't waste time thinking about what other people should or should not be thinking or doing. And I honestly can't understand why other people do waste so much time and energy doing exactly that.

I keep asking, but I'm not getting any answer to the question. What makes you think you have the right to dictate to other people what they should and shouldn't believe or do? Especially when you must know that they will not obey your dictates, anyway.

I know how laws are made. I am asking you what you feel the law should be in regard to abortion.

I feel the law should be what it is, because it has been established by the mechanisms that this society of human beings chose to do so. I, personally, would not have an abortion, even in the case of rape, if I were a woman. But that's me. I am not the yardstick by which all other human beings must be made to measure up.