Paul: "If Christ be not raised your faith is in vain and you are still in your sins"

[Epoisses]

Yes, it does. However, one thing is guaranteed; observe the Law and you are safe. Use your method to claim grace and you could be in big trouble. Epoisses, if not for me, do it for Jesus. His method was the one of the Law down to the letter, including the rituals. (Mat. 5:17-19) But you don't need the ritual but you can do it at least as the Decalogue is concerned. Jesus preferred the method without risk. The grace method depends on the Law method. Never forget that God's main blessings of forgiveness and salvation are depending on how we observe the Law.

Observe the law and you are cut off from grace and under condemnation. The sole function of the law is to point out sin and it obviously hasn't worked on you or else you would flee to Jesus for forgiveness.

 

[Ben Masada]

That was a flesh and blood Jesus that died on the cross for your sins and the sins of the world.

Only "flesh & blood die." And Jesus was not the only Jew to die on the cross mind you! According to Josephus, thousands of Jews were crucified only in the First Century. What is the interest of the Christian to individualize Jesus, to proceed from the individual into the People? To unconsciously promote the People as the real desirable of the Ages? Well, if that's the truth, it is quite flattering.

Why is it you cannot believe the scriptures?

What Scriptures do you have in mind, the one Jesus always referred to as the Word of God aka the Tanach? I do believe in it.

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the savior of the world" 1 John 4:14.

And how much of this world has Jesus saved? Believe me, the world was less lost before Jesus was born than after he died. I mean, things have got many times worse than before.

 

[Ben Masada]

Observe the law and you are cut off from grace and under condemnation. The sole function of the law is to point out sin and it obviously hasn't worked on you or else you would flee to Jesus for forgiveness.

How could I flee to the dead for forgiveness, for Heaven sake, Epoisses! How many times do I have to tell you that, according to the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave? Read 2 Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14 and Job 7:9 and forget no longer. If the dead could have an idea of what is done about them up here, Jesus would turn in the grave.

 

[Ben Masada]

Observe the law and you are cut off from grace and under condemnation. The sole function of the law is to point out sin and it obviously hasn't worked on you or else you would flee to Jesus for forgiveness.

I wish you had said that to Jesus himself who implied with his parable of the Richman and Lazarus that the only way to escape hell-fire was by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. Now, like all the others, I bet you will go silently about Luke 16:29-31. Perhaps you will even prefer to admit that Jesus was not a Jew at this point. You will find better to believe in Paul than in the Judaism of Jesus. BTW, did you know that Paul was the one who fabricated the resurrection of Jesus? Believe it or not, that's true. Read II Tim. 2:8.

 

[Nanja]

They cannot see !
Jn 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Right, and that word "see" in John 3:3 is eidō;
to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive

So unless a person is Born of God they can't understand Spiritual Truths relating to God and His Kingdom.


~~~~~

 

[Ben Masada]

Observe the law and you are cut off from grace and under condemnation. The sole function of the law is to point out sin and it obviously hasn't worked on you or else you would flee to Jesus for forgiveness.

Elohim adirim, I can't believe that! Believe me Epoisses, if you were elected to be the head adviser in a city, the whole city would live in jail. With you, one is condemned for obeying the Law, not for breaking the Law. Was this a joke?

 

[Robert Pate]

Of themselves they were incapable of doing anything that pleased God.

But it was because the Holy Ghost fell on them:


Acts. 11:15
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


Because God's Almighty Spiritual Power fell upon them, they were Made Able to Hear the Gospel which is Spiritual, by God-Given Faith, a Fruit and Gift of the Holy Spirit!

~~~~~

"Faith comes by hearing and believing the Gospel" Romans 10:17.

You allow Calvinism to dictate everything that you believe, instead of the Bible.

 

[Robert Pate]

Elohim adirim, I can't believe that! Believe me Epoisses, if you were elected to be the head adviser in a city, the whole city would live in jail. With you, one is condemned for obeying the Law, not for breaking the Law. Was this a joke?

"By the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

 

[Brother Ducky]

You don't believe that Jesus is the savior of the world aka a universal atonement.

The Samaritans called Jesus the savior of the world and they definitely were not part of the 'whole world of Israel'.

True enough. But I suspect that most do not hold to a universal atonement. A universal atonement without a universal heavenly salvation becomes meaningless. Can I correctly assume that for you salvation = atonement is not the same thing as salvation = going to heaven upon death?

The whole world does not have to mean every human soul. It can mean some from various classes of humans, and in particular Jews and Gentiles. Together, Jews + Gentiles make up the whole world. To save both Jews and gentiles is to save the world.

 

[Robert Pate]

True enough. But I suspect that most do not hold to a universal atonement. A universal atonement without a universal heavenly salvation becomes meaningless. Can I correctly assume that for you salvation = atonement is not the same thing as salvation = going to heaven upon death?

The whole world does not have to mean every human soul. It can mean some from various classes of humans, and in particular Jews and Gentiles. Together, Jews + Gentiles make up the whole world. To save both Jews and gentiles is to save the world.

The term "world" means all, anyone, everyone, whosoever. So when the scripture says... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. It means everybody in the world has an opportunity to be saved.

 

[Epoisses]

True enough. But I suspect that most do not hold to a universal atonement. A universal atonement without a universal heavenly salvation becomes meaningless. Can I correctly assume that for you salvation = atonement is not the same thing as salvation = going to heaven upon death?

The whole world does not have to mean every human soul. It can mean some from various classes of humans, and in particular Jews and Gentiles. Together, Jews + Gentiles make up the whole world. To save both Jews and gentiles is to save the world.

The Calvinist assertion that what Christ accomplished on the cross automatically inserts itself in the lives of the elect is false. Christ saved the world on the cross, mission accomplished. Sinners still need to believe in Jesus, receive the Holy Spirit and experience the new birth. That's not automatic and totally depraved sinners can believe in Jesus. The job of the Holy Spirit is to reprove the world of sin, righteousness and a judgment to come. All men have a conscience where God speaks to them and some respond to this drawing of Christ and most do not.

 

[Brother Ducky]

The term "world" means all, anyone, everyone, whosoever. So when the scripture says... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. It means everybody in the world has an opportunity to be saved.

Actually, it does not mean that at all. It means exactly what it says, those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It does not say or mean that all people can call upon the Lord.

It might mean that, but without showing that from other Scripture it is a mere hope or wish on your part.

 

[Brother Ducky]

The Calvinist assertion that what Christ accomplished on the cross automatically inserts itself in the lives of the elect is false. Christ saved the world on the cross, mission accomplished. Sinners still need to believe in Jesus, receive the Holy Spirit and experience the new birth. That's not automatic and totally depraved sinners can believe in Jesus. The job of the Holy Spirit is to reprove the world of sin, righteousness and a judgment to come. All men have a conscience where God speaks to them and some respond to this drawing of Christ and most do not.

Not sure that many Calvinists would argue that the benefits of Christ's cross work is automatic. Inevitable,but not automatic.

Can you elucidate the differences, if any between "saved" and having the "new birth?" I suspect for most they would be synonymous,but it would seem that for you they are different. It would appear that if saved =/= born again, being saved is basically meaningless.

 

[Robert Pate]

Actually, it does not mean that at all. It means exactly what it says, those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It does not say or mean that all people can call upon the Lord.

It might mean that, but without showing that from other Scripture it is a mere hope or wish on your part.

"Whosoever" means all, anyone, everyone.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, but not everyone wants it. Only those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews heard the Gospel and believed. Some had participated in the crucifixion of Christ, Acts 2:36. In case you are think that they had been regenerated before they heard the Gospel.

 

[Brother Ducky]

"Whosoever" means all, anyone, everyone.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, but not everyone wants it. Only those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews heard the Gospel and believed. Some had participated in the crucifixion of Christ, Acts 2:36. In case you are think that they had been regenerated before they heard the Gospel.

Let's look at a similar proposition: Whosoever legally enters a women's marathon can win it.

Question: Mr. Pate can you win a women's marathon? Whosoever means anyone, and you are part anyone, so can you?

 

[beloved57]

"Whosoever" means all, anyone, everyone.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, but not everyone wants it. Only those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews heard the Gospel and believed. Some had participated in the crucifixion of Christ, Acts 2:36. In case you are think that they had been regenerated before they heard the Gospel.

False claims not supported by scripture. Also promotes salvation by works, by what a person does !

 

[Robert Pate]

Let's look at a similar proposition: Whosoever legally enters a women's marathon can win it.

Question: Mr. Pate can you win a women's marathon? Whosoever means anyone, and you are part anyone, so can you?

You don't understand the word "Whosoever". When you assign a group or a an individual to the word "whosoever" it no longer becomes whosoever.

A woman's marathon can only be entered by a woman, not whosoever.

 

[Robert Pate]

False claims not supported by scripture. Also promotes salvation by works, by what a person does !

Jesus said that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, John 3:16.

Me thinks that you are going to perish.

 

[beloved57]

Jesus said that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, John 3:16.

Me thinks that you are going to perish.

You dont believe or understand that scripture. You teach salvation by the will of man !

 

[Brother Ducky]

You don't understand the word "Whosoever". When you assign a group or a an individual to the word "whosoever" it no longer becomes whosoever.

A woman's marathon can only be entered by a woman, not whosoever.

In your verse the group of those who believe are added to the whosoever. Therefore it is no longer whosoever???