pacifism for true Jesus' followers.

[meshak]

You guys try your best to silence the whole truth about Jesus' noble teachings.

It will not work.

The more you try the more His teachings become powerful.

There is no fear in His word.

 

[KingdomRose]

It was different? How is going to war back then versus in Jesus' time any different other than the technologies and strategies used? Where, in Genesis 14, does it show Abram talking with God about what to do about Lot's situation?



Maybe that's because our government is Godless and doesn't care what He says?



Neither did Abram.



So? Again, neither did Abram.



I think God made man to be creative enough to not require God's suggestion at every decision.

But again, I ask, where does Genesis 14 state that Abraham first talked to God about going to war to recover his family?

KR, Genesis 14 does not have anywhere that Abraham stopped to talk to God about going to war.

They also took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.Then one who had escaped came and told Abram the Hebrew, for he dwelt by the terebinth trees of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol and brother of Aner; and they were allies with Abram.Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus.So he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his brother Lot and his goods, as well as the women and the people. - Genesis 14:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis14:12-16&version=NKJV

It literally says that Abram, as soon as he heard about Lot, armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants and went in persuit of his enemy. He used military strategies to defeat his enemy and bring back Lot and his family.

Now, tell me the difference between Abram doing all of that, going to war against those who had attacked his family and neighbors, and, say, President Roosevelt taking us to war against Japan who had attacked us, and the rest of the Axis powers who were attacking other innocent nations.

Oh, and that word I bolded above? "Trained"? That shows that Abram had the foresight to train men to fight.

This is exactly why knowing the Bible is necessary for drawing conclusions. Abraham was God's friend,
and he listened to God and obeyed Him.

"You, O Israel, are my servant, you, O Jacob, whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend." (Isaiah 41:8)

"And by means of your seed all nations of he earth will be blessed due to the fact that you have listened to my voice." (Genesis 22:18)

The Bible doesn't say when Jehovah and Abraham communicated with each other or exactly what they said, but obviously they were close. So if the Bible doesn't say that Abraham goofed by going out and bringing back his people and goods from warring nations around him, we can pretty much be sure that God didn't disapprove. However, this does not mean that people today have God's approval to go to war. Are the military leaders of the countries FRIENDS with Jehovah? Do they OBEY Him about anything?

 

[KingdomRose]

You clearly don't know the Bible then, or Jesus, for that matter.

If you want to involved in the violent practice or advocate, please do not claim to be a Christian.[/QUOTE}

You can't tell me not to claim to be a Christian because I advocate justice. That's just not how it works.

Christians should be advocating for justice, not for apathy, aka pacifism.



Actually, it's the opposite.

If you advocate pacifism, you are inherently claiming to be apathetic towards your neighbor.



No, because that's called apathy. God did not give us the right to be apathetic toward our neighbor.



Then why are you even on TOL?

Unfortunately, it is YOU that doesn't know the Bible. Don't you know that Jesus taught that ALL people are our neighbors? That was his point in telling the parable of the Good Samaritan. Did you miss that?

 

[KingdomRose]

[h=3]There are many bible verses like this one.

Christ Defeats the Beast
[/h]¹¹ I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. ¹² His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. ¹³ He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. ¹⁴ The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ¹⁵ Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. ¹⁶ On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Yes, so what? That is talking about GOD'S WAR. People will not be involved in killing God's enemies. Whatever warring that has to be done, now and in the future, GOD HIMSELF will take care of, by means of His Son, the Lord of lords. That is why God says, "Vengeance is MINE, I will repay." (Deut.32:35; Romans 12:19) He will repay when those verses that you quoted are fulfilled, which will be in the near future.

Man has no right to wreak vengeance onto any other nation or ANYone (outside of the local authorities' laws which give legitimacy to such things as capital punishment). God will take care of repaying injury for all the injuries of the wicked. Humans are not to do it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Unfortunately, it is YOU that doesn't know the Bible. Don't you know that Jesus taught that ALL people are our neighbors? That was his point in telling the parable of the Good Samaritan. Did you miss that?

And when your neighbor is coming at you with a knife in hand yelling like a madman, what do you do? Do you let him stab you once in the left side and also in the right? Do you let him carve out both your eyes instead of just one?

Or do you fend him off, and try to wrench the knife away from him and attempt to subdue him?

If a man is coming after you with the intent to kill you, you have every right to protect yourself, with violence, if necessary, because you have a God-given RIGHT TO LIFE.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was not talking about governmental policy. He was talking about life in the Kingdom after "The Time of Jacob's Trouble," (AKA "the Great Tribulation") which started (but was never finished) after Christ's ascension into heaven. It describes how people should act if someone wrongs them, because Christ would be ruling with a rod of iron, and not allowing anyone get away with any crime, criminals would be dealt with almost immediately.

However, that's life in the Kingdom, not life today. Today, our government cannot even lower the crime rate, let alone eliminate crime almost completely, and it's because of a) bad laws and b) bad government.

 

[john w]

You guys try your best to silence the whole truth about Jesus' noble teachings.

It will not work.

The more you try the more His teachings become powerful.

There is no fear in His word.

You had Bybee wacked, didn't you? Good day to you, Sonny.

 

[KingdomRose]

Ever hear of Iwo Jima?

You and yours in Okinawa would not even have your lives, let alone the freedoms you enjoy; if not for all the young men who lost their lives on that island not too far from yours - because Japan: your horrible horrible oppressor; had to be stopped at any cost.

All wars are "spiritual."

Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Yes, and that is why the World War even began. None of man's wars has been necessary, except for the greediness of the nations' leaders. If the self-described Christian churches (which make up the largest percentage of religious adherents throughout the world) had taught their people what Jesus taught there would have been no WWI or WWII. Hitler wouldn't have even risen to power in Germany! No wonder the Bible calls "Babylon the Great," the "world empire of false religion," responsible for ALL of the blood spilled on the earth!

"In her was found the blood of the prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Revelation 18:24, NASB)


Everybody in Japan would've been alive from WWII up to now if bombs hadn't been dropped on them. Why don't you do some research, and I'll be surprised if you don't find that Japan went into the war on the behest of Germany. As I said, Hitler couldn't have risen to power without the support of the Catholic Church, so where does the guilt lie for the war being started at all?

 

[KingdomRose]

This is a trend, [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] , this is a dance that winds up in the same place with almost every non-Trin user account with which I've ever the pleasure of interacting. Do you know how many Trinitarians have trouble with this simple question? Zero. Goose egg.

How can meshak NOT believe in the resurrection of Jesus if she believes everything he said? If Jesus did not rise again, then he would've been a fake. No one would even remember him at all.

 

[KingdomRose]

The Resurrection, is what it's all about. "The crowning truth," and, "the central truth" of the Christian faith. It is no game.

That is true, and no non-trinitarian will disagree with that.

 

[KingdomRose]

Thanks PJ, wudn't sure how to say that earlier.

You people are sad puppies. I'll just say that if meshak isn't in the coming new world, you certainly won't be either.

 

[KingdomRose]

Have fun in hell !!!

Pompous intellectually challenged (didn't want to say "idiot") fool. You don't realize yet that "hell" is THE GRAVE? It's been pointed out to you ad nauseum. A person in hell would not be conscious of anything, good or bad. (Eccles.9:5,10)

 

[KingdomRose]

You're preaching to the choir, bud! That's why I said you're the exception.

No, we ALL believe in the resurrection (even though we reject the pagan Trinity).

 

[KingdomRose]

I don't know! I was surprised to find it. You bring up the Resurrection, and non-Trins scatter like spooked deer. You're the exception so far, I'm sure there are others, maybe [MENTION=4651]kmoney[/MENTION] for instance, others, but there's already a healthy contingent of non-Trins who run from that question, they consider it some sort of invasion of their privacy to ask, rather than just a simple easy question, which it is, for Christians who believe in the Trinity. It's simple and easy, not offensive, not a challenge, not a move in a game, it's just a simple easy question with an easy answer, and that's that.

You are making a mountain out of a mole-hill! Just because meshak didn't answer you, you ASSUME that none of us will answer you! Then you ASSUME that non-trins don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus!! You are carrying that little dust-up with meshak WAY out of bounds, and you're still running with it.

Also, how can you say that no one here who is non-trin has answered you affirmatively about the resurrection? You asked me directly and I said YES I believe in Christ's resurrection! So you are spreading lies.

 

[KingdomRose]

Non fictionally? He is risen full stop!

But he has to be risen in us, Don't you believe that?

Christ has to be in us, or we are dead to him!

You're stepping on your own foot here. You said you believe in the resurrection of Jesus but then go off onto another tangent. Quit while you're ahead. Jesus being "in" his disciples is another topic. I believe that Jesus rose from the dead but I don't believe he is literally inside us.

When Jesus spoke of himself or God being "in" us and we "in" them, it merely meant that we all AGREE. His teachings are in our hearts, and we act in accord with them.

 

[Danoh]

Yes, and that is why the World War even began. None of man's wars has been necessary, except for the greediness of the nations' leaders. If the self-described Christian churches (which make up the largest percentage of religious adherents throughout the world) had taught their people what Jesus taught there would have been no WWI or WWII. Hitler wouldn't have even risen to power in Germany! No wonder the Bible calls "Babylon the Great," the "world empire of false religion," responsible for ALL of the blood spilled on the earth!

"In her was found the blood of the prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." (Revelation 18:24, NASB)

Everybody in Japan would've been alive from WWII up to now if bombs hadn't been dropped on them. Why don't you do some research, and I'll be surprised if you don't find that Japan went into the war on the behest of Germany. As I said, Hitler couldn't have risen to power without the support of the Catholic Church, so where does the guilt lie for the war being started at all?

Not true. Germany only appears to have been a catalyst.

Germany had nothing to do with Japan's Expantionist invasion of various parts of China and other near countries anymore than Japan's attempts at Imperialistic Expansion in previous centuries had anything to do with that.

And Japan was atheist. Can't blame some "Christian" failure on that.

And the RCC has never been Christian.

It too is has been an Imperialistic agency.

Further, Japan's resistence to surrender was for their religious reasons: their Emperor was viewed as divine.

They viewed surrender not only as not an option, but viewed death in the service of their Emperor an assurance of a greater glory in the hereafter.

And my point to Meshak, who I am always friendly with, is that she ought to consider the many lives that war nevertheless cost many who had believed they were fighting for freedom from tyranny.

The young men who go off to war under the misguided idea that they have actually been sent off to fight a just cause.

Which is hardly ever the reality.

But that is what many of them believe they are going off to fight for: for various just causes.

That ought to be respected.

We know what is often really behind wars - greed, lust for power, genocide, and all the rest.

 

[KingdomRose]

All this is cultist talk. A Christian need not concern themselves with anybody who isn't relaying what the popes/magisterium teach. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is Christ Jesus son of Mary mother of God's memo to His Church, guaranteed.

Thought you said you were not Catholic.

 

[KingdomRose]

The Catholic Church's been helping and looking out for the poor and sick for centuries. The largest and oldest charitable organization on earth. Which is what you'd expect . . . if the Lord is risen indeed.

The church's representative have also been raping, neglecting, kidnapping, extorting and lying to the poor and sick for centuries. Haven't you done any research into the church's history? Don't you pay attention to news reports? You still haven't answered my questions on Rodrigo Borgia.

 

[marhig]

You're stepping on your own foot here. You said you believe in the resurrection of Jesus but then go off onto another tangent. Quit while you're ahead. Jesus being "in" his disciples is another topic. I believe that Jesus rose from the dead but I don't believe he is literally inside us.

When Jesus spoke of himself or God being "in" us and we "in" them, it merely meant that we all AGREE. His teachings are in our hearts, and we act in accord with them.

Sorry I don't agree, (regarding what it means that to be in God and Christ and them in us, means that we just all agree with them), that's not enough. We are to be willing to lay down our lives and live by the will of God, to be a living sacrifice. And through faith by the grace of God, the life of Christ is made manifest in our hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit, thus Christ is within our hearts and his life should be seen through us as ours is put to death, thus he's risen in us and we are risen with him by the power of God! If we truly agree, God and Christ we will be doers of the word as not hearers only.

Too many like to hear, but don't like to truly follow Jesus and live by the gospel!

Colossians 3

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God

I'm dead KR, the flesh loving Mary is gone, I now live by the will of God and Christ in me by the power of the spirit subdues my flesh daily, I'm gone, and my life is hidden with Christ in God. He is my life now.

 

[marhig]

John 23

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Colossians 1

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Galatians 2

Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”*

 

[KingdomRose]

You're non-Trin, you're not going to care. But if you can sympathize with a Trinitarian, Luke 1:43 (KJV) is good enough for me. It's just logical otherwise, almost linguistic, semantic. But regardless, the Church teaches to pray, and to pray the rosary, and that's good enough for me.

Pray the rosary? And that's good enough for you? Obviously you have dismissed the very words of Jesus:

"Don't recite the same prayer over and over as the heathen do, who think prayers are answered only by repeating them again and again." (Matthew 6:7, The Catholic Living Bible)


You claim Luke 1:43 says that Mary is the mother of God? It merely says that Mary would be the mother of "the Lord." That certainly is NOT saying that Mary is the mother of God!