No one is asking you to stay. Pick another country and go there. No one . is killing the Saints? How sheltered are you. Have you not heard of ISIS? They are doing a pretty good job at killing the Saints.
pacifism for true Jesus' followers.
- Thread starter meshak
- Start date
No one is asking you to stay. Pick another country and go there. No one . is killing the Saints? How sheltered are you. Have you not heard of ISIS? They are doing a pretty good job at killing the Saints.
Rosenritter
New member
It is natural to try to prevent harm to oneself when attacked, it is wise to kill an enemy before he can kill you. That is the most basic fundamental military strategy. But the point here, I believe, is that Jesus didn't call us out of the world to fight and kill as the children of this fallen world. It may seem insane to eschew violence, and that is indeed foolishness by the measure of this world. But the foolishness of the world is the faith and patience of the saints.
Revelation 13:10 KJV
(10) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
What is the worst that could happen without a military? We might all be killed. And I'm telling you that's already planned for. Our King has conquered death and hell and I have faith that he will raise his saints when he comes into his kingdom.
But did Jesus give us the job to kill the enemies before they can kill the saints?
Psalms 116:15 KJV
(15) Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Or did he say that we are to love our enemies? It is a very difficult thing to love your enemy at the same time as you're trying to kill him.
Matthew 10:34-36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
34 “Do not think that I came to [a]bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.
So exactly who armed Isis in Syria and destroyed the stability of the middle east and operates the drug money of Afghanistan.
The west coalition did.
and if you did not know that then you certainly have much blood on your hands, so that the destruction of much of the USA draws nigh--
Rev 13:10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword.
LA
You don't own any country. You have no right to push people around to leave.
everything belongs to God.
You don't know that?
sheesh.
Rosenritter
New member
Do you believe that Jesus meant "sword" in the more literal sense of "an instrument of carnal warfare" as represented by a sharp military object? Because it seems to me that the context of that passage defines the meaning more metaphorically, as the examples it gives is "man against father" and "of our own household." This would indicate a conflict between close relationships rather that literally killing one another.
Have you ever given thought to the nature of military service? It usually requires an oath (see Matthew 5:34, James 5:12) and it places the soldier under the direct command of someone who is not in the service of Christ. If that superior officer orders you to murder another human you have already agreed to do so according to your oath. You've already stated that officer and that kingdom government is your master.
Matthew 6:24-25 KJV
(24) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
(25) Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Boring.
It has been refuted tons of time.
I will do it again.
Jesus is talking about spiritual war.
His followers are supposed to work for spiritual things.
You are too busy fighting for the worldly things.
Jesus says His followers are not of the world.
The war is political and the worldly matter.
You are dismissing too many of Jesus' word in your practice too.
Rosey, what is a sword meant to do?
It's meant to divide flesh from flesh.
It's meant to kill.
Yup.
An upright government does not require oaths from its soldiers. Oaths are a bad idea. Also... forbidden by God.
“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. - Matthew 5:33-37 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew5:33-37&version=NKJV
A nation should reinforce its military with male volunteers only.
Then Jerubbaal (that is, Gideon) and all the people who were with him rose early and encamped beside the well of Harod, so that the camp of the Midianites was on the north side of them by the hill of Moreh in the valley.And the Lord said to Gideon, “The people who are with you are too many for Me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel claim glory for itself against Me, saying, ‘My own hand has saved me.’Now therefore, proclaim in the hearing of the people, saying, ‘Whoever is fearful and afraid, let him turn and depart at once from Mount Gilead.’ ” And twenty-two thousand of the people returned, and ten thousand remained.But the Lord said to Gideon, “The people are still too many; bring them down to the water, and I will test them for you there. Then it will be, that of whom I say to you, ‘This one shall go with you,’ the same shall go with you; and of whomever I say to you, ‘This one shall not go with you,’ the same shall not go.”So he brought the people down to the water. And the Lord said to Gideon, “Everyone who laps from the water with his tongue, as a dog laps, you shall set apart by himself; likewise everyone who gets down on his knees to drink.”And the number of those who lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, was three hundred men; but all the rest of the people got down on their knees to drink water.Then the Lord said to Gideon, “By the three hundred men who lapped I will save you, and deliver the Midianites into your hand. Let all the other people go, every man to his place.”So the people took provisions and their trumpets in their hands. And he sent away all the rest of Israel, every man to his tent, and retained those three hundred men. Now the camp of Midian was below him in the valley. - Judges 7:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges7:1-8&version=NKJV
:think:
neway::think:
neway::think:
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJV
Then he should be executed for conspiracy to murder, nor should he be obeyed.
:idunno:
Don't do evil that good may come of it.
No, you haven't.
You've agreed to serve the military.
But we serve God rather than man.
God says to obey those in authority.
He also says that His ways are higher than our ways.
His words supercede man's.
Also consider that if something does not inherently violate God's commands, then there is nothing wrong with obeying them, and one can, understanding that the law is not for us, and as Paul did, place oneself under the law (even though it doesn't actually apply to us) for the sake of others.
:liberals:
No idea what this is referring to... Maybe I'm reading it wrong???
If we serve the government by serving in its military (in obeying it's lawful and righteous commands), we are indirectly serving God (per Romans 13), as long as we do not violate God's law, there is nothing wrong with obeying our government's commands.
Red herring.
Straw man.
Shoo, fly, don't bother the adults while they speak.
Neither do you have the rights to tell anyone here what to do.
And God delegated authority to governments, the family, the church, and to businesses.
:troll:
Rosenritter
New member
That is the literal meaning of "sword." Are you telling me that you do not recognize metaphorical application of "sword" for applications of offense that do not involve killing or the taking of life?
Ephesians 6:17 KJV
(17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Regardless, the passage in question was Matthew 10:34, and the word "sword" is defined as "at variance" within the very next verse, even in the context of daughter against mother. Are you in agreement with Raven that this passage means that Jesus came to cause us to literally kill each other? I would appreciate it if you would clarify whether you believe that passage is relevant to the subject at hand (of Christianity and the taking of human life under a flag of war.)
Matthew 10:34-35 KJV
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/oath-of-enlistment-3354049
"US MILITARY CAREERS JOINING THE MILITARY
Oath of Enlistment for Military Service
•••
BY ROD POWERS Updated October 18, 2018
Federal law requires everyone who enlists or re-enlists in the Armed Forces of the United States to take the enlistment oath.
The oath of enlistment is administered by any commissioned officer to any person enlisting or re-enlisting for a term of service into any branch of the military. The oath is traditionally performed in front of the United States Flag and other flags, such as the state flag, military branch flag, and unit guidon may be present as well."
So when the governing authority says that it is good and acceptable to kill another human being because he is a citizen of another country, does that make it good and acceptable?
Who defines murder? The country you have taken an oath to serve? Or God above?
If you are serving in the military, there is a good chance that you will be instructed to do something that violates God's commands. The military does not exist to "Love God" or "Love thy neighbor" - it's primary purpose is to kill people and break things. Perhaps you might be lucky and serve during peace time, but that's a sidestepping the question that we need to have answered ahead of time.
I was referring to the said oath of military service.
Should the servants of Jesus fight?
John 18:36 KJV
(36) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
And as for that other kingdom (whichever one, or ones, that you may have citizenship within) ... are they righteous? How many infant sacrifices do they sponsor each year? Have they taken that which God has joined together and declared it equal with abomination? When Jesus returns, how many nations fight against Him, and does it even read as if there are any righteous nations that are overjoyed at his return?
If we cannot have two masters (and love them both) the same principle applies to kingdoms.If our kingdom is heavenly, then we should not place our treasure in earthly powers. Murder doesn't become not-murder just because a commanding officer (or an executive officer) gives an order, but someone that has placed themselves under that command will have to fight against years of ingrained obedience to disobey when he should. It isn't a good situation to be in if we have any other choice.
This is my thread. I paid a humongous amount to post.
how much have you paid?
You are the troll telling paid poster calling troll.
Often times the literal meaning of a word carries over to the metaphorical.
Rosey, did you notice that the first portion of what I said was that "it divides flesh from flesh."
That applies to the figurative use as well.
I recognize the metaphors just fine.
However, you're missing my point.
No, it's not.
"At variance" is not in the passage.
Don't add to scripture.
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ - Matthew 10:34-36 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew10:34-36&version=NKJV
I don't see anywhere where BR made that claim.
[MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION], perhaps you could correct me if I'm wrong...
Again, don't add to scripture.
:blabla:
None of that has anything to do with what I just said.
Namely:
| An upright government does not require oaths from its soldiers. Oaths are a bad idea. Also... forbidden by God. “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. - Matthew 5:33-37 http://www.biblegateway.com/pa...ch=Matthew5:33-37&version=NKJV A nation should reinforce its military with male volunteers only. Then Jerubbaal (that is, Gideon) and all the people who were with him rose early and encamped beside the well of Harod, so that the camp of the Midianites was on the north side of them by the hill of Moreh in the valley.And the Lord said to Gideon, “The people who are with you are too many for Me to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel claim glory for itself against Me, saying, ‘My own hand has saved me.’Now therefore, proclaim in the hearing of the people, saying, ‘Whoever is fearful and afraid, let him turn and depart at once from Mount Gilead.’ ” And twenty-two thousand of the people returned, and ten thousand remained.But the Lord said to Gideon, “The people are still too many; bring them down to the water, and I will test them for you there. Then it will be, that of whom I say to you, ‘This one shall go with you,’ the same shall go with you; and of whomever I say to you, ‘This one shall not go with you,’ the same shall not go.”So he brought the people down to the water. And the Lord said to Gideon, “Everyone who laps from the water with his tongue, as a dog laps, you shall set apart by himself; likewise everyone who gets down on his knees to drink.”And the number of those who lapped, putting their hand to their mouth, was three hundred men; but all the rest of the people got down on their knees to drink water.Then the Lord said to Gideon, “By the three hundred men who lapped I will save you, and deliver the Midianites into your hand. Let all the other people go, every man to his place.”So the people took provisions and their trumpets in their hands. And he sent away all the rest of Israel, every man to his tent, and retained those three hundred men. Now the camp of Midian was below him in the valley. - Judges 7:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/pa...earch=Judges7:1-8&version=NKJV |
There's not enough info in that question to determine if it is good or bad to kill the person in question.
Do you seriously not know? Or are you asking me to find out if I know?
God has defined murder as the intentional killing of an innocent person. (In other words, someone who has done nothing worthy of punishment.)
Your point?
Duh.
:idunno:
Taking scripture out of context will ALWAYS result in confusion.
What Jesus said was:
1) to Pilate
2) about a kingdom that is not of this world
3) that if his servants fought, he would not be able to go to the cross
| Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover.Pilate then went out to them and said, “What accusation do you bring against this Man?”They answered and said to him, “If He were not an evildoer, we would not have delivered Him up to you.”Then Pilate said to them, “You take Him and judge Him according to your law.” Therefore the Jews said to him, “It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,”that the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled which He spoke, signifying by what death He would die.Then Pilate entered the Praetorium again, called Jesus, and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?”Jesus answered him, [JESUS]“Are you speaking for yourself about this, or did others tell you this concerning Me?”[/JESUS]Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”Jesus answered, [JESUS]“My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”[/JESUS]Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, [JESUS]“You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”[JESUS]Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no fault in Him at all. - John 18:28-38 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John18:28-38&version=NKJV |
Hence, based on the 3 points above, we know for certain that this has nothing to do with whether it is good and just to serve in the military, because Pilate isn't around anymore, Jesus' kingdom has not yet been established, and Christ has already gone go the cross.
To the extent that they do not violate God's laws, they are not wicked. To the extent they keep God's laws, they are righteous.
:AMR:
I don't see Jesus returning, and that's after 7 years (or less) of the Great Tribulation, anyways.
So what's your point?
:think: Romans 13...
What does that have to do with being in the military?
Duh...
What's your point?
No, one just has to know right from wrong, and when to apply that knowledge. Which is why it's important to have a government following righteous laws.
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So? You still don't get to tell anyone what to do.
No, you paid to support the site.
Everyone is allowed to post however much they like regardless of how much they donate to the site.
Rosenritter
New member
Matthew 10:34-35 KJV
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
JR, what are you smoking to come up with "at variance is not in the scripture" and performing cross outs of the word in the quotation to correct the bible? CROSSING OUT the words does not remove them from the passage. Frankly speaking, crossing out the word and adding your own to edit the scripture is 1) not honest handling of the word and 2) editing my quotation to "fix it for me" is against TOL posted behavior policy. You should care about the first even if not the second.
Spoiler
My bad. Didn't realize you were using the KJV.
You should put which version you're using when you quote the Bible.
Rosenritter
New member
The "KJV" label is intact in my original post (still unedited) and even your quotation of that post that you edited. Maybe do a quick check on both?
Where would you find such a government here? Because I don't know of any,
There isn't one. Hence why I am one who advocates a new government.
Rosenritter
New member
What a coincidence, so do I. But I'm not sure that we are thinking of the same type of government. What form would your ideal government have? Would it be a democracy? a republic? perhaps even a benevolent monarchy?
