pacifism for true Jesus' followers.

glorydaz

Well-known member
You mock Jesus by failing to understand his message.

We don't because we understand his message.

We don't promote sin, we promote justice.

You promote apathy, which is a sin.

And so is that obnoxious never ending PRIDE she wears like a badge of courage. :vomit:
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
you stink like Sulphur

This is PJ's neg rep for me.

You guys don't know how to behave like Christians but so good at mocking Jesus' followers.

You have been continually proving how malicious you are like your faith.
 

JudgeRightly

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This is PJ's neg rep for me.

You guys don't know how to behave like Christians but so good at mocking Jesus' followers.

You have been continually proving how malicious you are like your faith.
"ME"-shak, what happened to "turn the other cheek"? What happened to your "don't attack others"? You're attacking us because of what we believe. Yet you say "we shouldn't attack others."

You. Are. A. Hypocrite.

Get thee hence, Satan.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Again, there are many FACTORS involved and variables in the propositions of war

Again, there are many FACTORS involved and variables in the propositions of war

Hi freelight,

The point is, should those who are born of God and belong to the body of Christ, take up arms and war? Would Jesus have done this? No, he wouldn't so neither should those who belong to him. This world will war and fight, Satan is over all the kingdoms of it, so he will have them all killing each other for power and wealth and greed. But that's not the way of God, this world and it's ways are not of God, and killing innocent people is not of God either(and many are innocent who are killed in war). God sent Jesus to save not kill, and that's what those who belong to God will be wanting to to do. They will want to save others through Christ.

I was quoted verses out of Romans 13 yesterday that supposedly promote war. But also in that chapter was this.

The following is how those who truly follow Christ live.

Romans 13

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


Blessings in the Christos :)

I agree in spirit, ethic and principle of course, and advocate always the way of peace, but as shared by others previously, sometimes nations choose to go to war in certain situations which 'war' is serving a higher purpose by the powers the Be, and even powers above, to effect changes and transformations in the earth world and her peoples below. As I've noted,...'God' in the OT and even recognized in the NT is the sovereign Power over all, even orchestrating the tumults, conflicts and calamaties befalling mankind, and this certainly includes wars between nations, since the affairs of all world leaders are ultimately governed, directed by divine providence, even granted free will liberties,...the greater universal providence always prevails in the whole, even if some parts resist or choose not to go the higher way of life, thru love, righteousness and peace-making.

Individual followers of Jesus may choose NOT to join the military, and that is their personal choice,..but I would gather to guess a good number of those in the US military identify as some kind of 'Christian'. Some feel they are doing their duty for their country and 'God' simultaneously. What is different is only the 'opinions' on this matter. In the meantime I personally have no desire to join the military,...HOWEVER,...if there was an invasion of our country and lands and there was a serious call for citizens to rise, ARM themselves (to protect their lives and families from being killed, pillaged, destroyed, etc.).....I would consider Joining the local MILITIA in my area,...and hold the ground with my fellow countrymen. WOULD YOU? Or would you let foreign troops just ransack, pillage and murder you and your family, while you glibly stand by and do nothing? Now you see...there are sometimes where you must engage in physical self-defense...on local individual levels,...and in the greater context of nations contending with one another for one reason or another,....again back to the factor of there being 'situational-contexts' which may modify the rights and allowances of using physical force to protect oneself, or to protect others.

So,...while I'm certainly ALL ABOUT love, light, peace and human brotherhood, all under the Universal Fatherhood of God (actually a core part of Jesus true and original gospel)....I can also 'throw down' and get fierce like the Lion of Judah...when needed! In that respect, I'm gentle as a dove, but wise as a serpent, and with the art, skillfullness and intelligence given me by 'God', would be RIGHT to employ those faculties in the defense of life, recognizing its VALUE, and doing all that I can to preserve it. All else involved in considering the factors here will have to be evaluated by your own conscience. I would approach Jesus teachings with balanced discernment in light of all other universal laws and principles, then live your life with the values and loyalty to truth, as you see fit. I think we can both be reasonable enough to research our views on this, and stay open to consider aspects within the whole context, rather than just hilighting 'parts', and by doing so fail to see the forest for the trees.
 

marhig

Well-known member
If they volunteer for military service, then yes.

If they don't volunteer, then they should not be forced to serve.

I dunno, I think it would be the other way around, I wouldn't volunteer but I'd go if called in, I'd go to the front line, and I'd go as a medic and refuse to take up arms.
 

marhig

Well-known member
How does one make peace, Marhig? When the world is at war, how can a nation make another peaceful?

As I said, the world will war, but those born of God fight a spiritual fight, or don't you believe Paul when he said that our weapons are not of this world?



God appointed the government to be His ministers, avengers of wrath on those who practice evil.

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJVa
Sorry I don't believe he's talking about the natural government when he talks of ministers and authority but rather those who minister the word who are born of God, and the Holy Spirit. And the sword is the sword of the Spirit, who fights with the word of God. Just like Jesus and those born of God who have come after Jesus in his name!
 
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marhig

Well-known member
Blessings in the Christos :)

I agree in spirit, ethic and principle of course, and advocate always the way of peace, but as shared by others previously, sometimes nations choose to go to war in certain situations which 'war' is serving a higher purpose by the powers the Be, and even powers above, to effect changes and transformations in the earth world and her peoples below. As I've noted,...'God' in the OT and even recognized in the NT is the sovereign Power over all, even orchestrating the tumults, conflicts and calamaties befalling mankind, and this certainly includes wars between nations, since the affairs of all world leaders are ultimately governed, directed by divine providence, even granted free will liberties,...the greater universal providence always prevails in the whole, even if some parts resist or choose not to go the higher way of life, thru love, righteousness and peace-making.

Individual followers of Jesus may choose NOT to join the military, and that is their personal choice,..but I would gather to guess a good number of those in the US military identify as some kind of 'Christian'. Some feel they are doing their duty for their country and 'God' simultaneously. What is different is only the 'opinions' on this matter. In the meantime I personally have no desire to join the military,...HOWEVER,...if there was an invasion of our country and lands and there was a serious call for citizens to rise, ARM themselves (to protect their lives and families from being killed, pillaged, destroyed, etc.).....I would consider Joining the local MILITIA in my area,...and hold the ground with my fellow countrymen. WOULD YOU? Or would you let foreign troops just ransack, pillage and murder you and your family, while you glibly stand by and do nothing? Now you see...there are sometimes where you must engage in physical self-defense...on local individual levels,...and in the greater context of nations contending with one another for one reason or another,....again back to the factor of there being 'situational-contexts' which may modify the rights and allowances of using physical force to protect oneself, or to protect others.

So,...while I'm certainly ALL ABOUT love, light, peace and human brotherhood, all under the Universal Fatherhood of God (actually a core part of Jesus true and original gospel)....I can also 'throw down' and get fierce like the Lion of Judah...when needed! In that respect, I'm gentle as a dove, but wise as a serpent, and with the art, skillfullness and intelligence given me by 'God', would be RIGHT to employ those faculties in the defense of life, recognizing its VALUE, and doing all that I can to preserve it. All else involved in considering the factors here will have to be evaluated by your own conscience. I would approach Jesus teachings with balanced discernment in light of all other universal laws and principles, then live your life with the values and loyalty to truth, as you see fit. I think we can both be reasonable enough to research our views on this, and stay open to consider aspects within the whole context, rather than just hilighting 'parts', and by doing so fail to see the forest for the trees.

As I have always said, wars will happen and this world will always war, Satan is seated in high places, he will war and fight through those who listen to him, and they will always find a reason to kill one another. That's totally different to those born of God joining the military. You yourself have said you wouldn't want to do this, why is that?

In the flesh I would fight in a minute, but God has changed my heart and now I don't believe it is right to take up arms. The only time I'd fight is if someone was in immediate danger in front of me and then I would do whatever is necessary to stop the person from harming them. I would do whatever it took to stop them. But I wouldn't join up and train to kill others. The purpose of those born of God, is to pull down the strongholds of Satan with the word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.

There's a difference with signing up to purposely go out to war or fighting to protect those around us from immediate danger. And what about faith? Shouldn't we have faith in God? God will only let happen to us whatever his will is. And I know that I have to endure whatever is set before me including if that means losing my life for Gods sake.

But I still believe in my heart that it would be wrong for me knowing God, to train to kill or join an army and take up weapons. I believe that we are here to bring the love and mercy of God and the life of Christ to others, even those that hate us, with the hope that one day they will believe and be saved and brought out of death and darkness into the glorious light and life of God through Christ Jesus, from this death destroying world where the darkness of Satan rules it's kingdoms.
 

marhig

Well-known member
Again Romans 13, straight after Paul talks of ministers and authorities etc. follows the love of God. This(the following verses) is the love of God and the love that those born of God should have in their hearts for others, and being covered in our Lord Jesus Christ, like a tree in its season full of fruit, we worry not about our flesh or to fulfill the lusts of it, but rather have faith turn from sin and trust in God and he will look after us.

Romans 13:8 onward

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
 

marhig

Well-known member
I think that Paul is such an amazingly strong apostle of God and he and those of the same Spirit of Christ like him who truly follow Christ are the ministers that we are to listen to. Those who put God before themselves and this world and minister the word of God in truth.

The wonderful love chapter written by the apostle Paul inspired by God, who lived through faith and love and who suffered and bare witness to the truth and finished the race set before him and followed our Lord Jesus Christ to the end.

The Spirit of Christ through The apostle Paul

1 Corinthians 13

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Fear and greed are the two causes of wars.

When people stop their greed and become Christians, they still have to learn to stop fearing through listening to those of the world which they once were.

Isa 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Isa 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
Isa 14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


LA
 

eider

Well-known member
Pacifism?

We do not live in first century Judea. Today we live in a world filled with adversaries. I don't believe you would like living under Sharia law where you would be executed for your beliefs. Who is going to keep that from happening? The pacifists?
Hello Jamie! :)
So, basically, some of the things that Jesus said, don't really count for today? Yes?
But the trouble is, Jamie, that you INSIST upon some things that are found in the bible, yet want to discard, ignore, dismiss or plain outright argue about those things that get in your way? Yes?

Is it okay for an officer to defend himself or others when deadly force is required?
I believe in issuing police officers with self defence equipment, but here in England we see vids from US kids showing US cops shooting people in the back, and stuff. We indict anybody who does that.

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, it is for the world to come and his teachings were geared to that end.
But you insist that ceetain things he said (through Paul, for instance?) must be absolutely rigidly adherred to. It makes it difficult.

Aggression toward the Romans in first century Judea would have been futile as history has proven. Jesus taught non-aggression toward the Romans because of the futility of it.
Toward the Romans? In G-Mark Jesus only goes to Judea once, you know. And there were no Roman troops where he lived and held his mission, in Galilee.

You don't live in first century Judea, you live in a world today that is dangerous beyond comprehension.
Really? You think that the road to Jerusalem from the Northern provinces was comparitively safe?
At least once a year the Jews of the Decapolis, Trachonitis, Gaulanituis, Galilee, Sidon/Tyre, Gadarenes etc had only one road to travel on their way to the Temple, carrying theis saving for bed, board, services, head-tax, priest's other charges, sacrificial beast purchase, money-exchange and you think it was a safe journey?

The U.S. will be attacked, no doubt about it, but when that happens Christ will intervene on our behalf and many will be killed.
Huh? Why would Christ intervene aftyer you've been attacked?
Do you think Christ will just let you be attacked?
OK...... if you say so.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
thank you for bumping this up.

blessings.

What is this all about?

Matthew 10:34-36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
34 “Do not think that I came to [a]bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
What is this all about?

Matthew 10:34-36 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
34 “Do not think that I came to [a]bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

This thread is about Christians in the military.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Where would you be without Christians in the military. In fact, where would you be without a military?

Better off.

Rev 13:10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword.

Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (meaning, the saints are not killing anyone at this time)

LA
 
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