drbrumley
Well-known member
That didn't answer the question....a simple yes or no would have been sufficient.
But by reading this, I am to assume Jesus did not say that, God said that thru Him...
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pacifism for true Jesus' followers.
- Thread starter meshak
- Start date
But by reading this, I am to assume Jesus did not say that, God said that thru Him...
Sent from my SM-G920V using TOL mobile app
My point of this thread is that God and Jesus' names have been misrepresented to the world mainly it is Christians in the military.
This simple fact should not be disregarded.
Just because you say something is fact doesn't make it fact.
The so called "Jesus" anti-military "pacifists" obviously do not know their Bibles...
Acts 23:14 And they came to the chief priests and elders, and said, We have bound ourselves under a great curse, that we will eat nothing until we have slain Paul. 23:15 Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would enquire something more perfectly concerning him: and we, or ever he come near, are ready to kill him. 23:16 And when Paul's sister's son heard of their lying in wait, he went and entered into the castle, and told Paul. 23:17 Then Paul called one of the centurions unto him, and said, Bring this young man unto the chief captain: for he hath a certain thing to tell him. 23:18 So he took him, and brought him to the chief captain, and said, Paul the prisoner called me unto him, and prayed me to bring this young man unto thee, who hath something to say unto thee. 23:19 Then the chief captain took him by the hand, and went with him aside privately, and asked him, What is that thou hast to tell me? 23:20 And he said, The Jews have agreed to desire thee that thou wouldest bring down Paul to morrow into the council, as though they would enquire somewhat of him more perfectly. 23:21 But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath, that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed him: and now are they ready, looking for a promise from thee. 23:22 So the chief captain then let the young man depart, and charged him, See thou tell no man that thou hast shewed these things to me. 23:23 And he called unto him two centurions, saying, Make ready two hundred soldiers to go to Caesarea, and horsemen threescore and ten, and spearmen two hundred, at the third hour of the night; 23:24 And provide them beasts, that they may set Paul on, and bring him safe unto Felix the governor. 23:25 And he wrote a letter after this manner: 23:26 Claudius Lysias unto the most excellent governor Felix sendeth greeting. 23:27 This man was taken of the Jews, and should have been killed of them: then came I with an army, and rescued him, having understood that he was a Roman. 23:28 And when I would have known the cause wherefore they accused him, I brought him forth into their council: 23:29 Whom I perceived to be accused of questions of their law, but to have nothing laid to his charge worthy of death or of bonds. 23:30 And when it was told me how that the Jews laid wait for the man, I sent straightway to thee, and gave commandment to his accusers also to say before thee what they had against him. Farewell. 23:31 Then the soldiers, as it was commanded them, took Paul, and brought him by night to Antipatris.
marhig
Well-known member
Incorrect.
The government does not use the sword in vain. The word for sword used means, literally, a knife, such as a dirk (a long dagger), or figuratively, war or judicial punishment.
For individuals in the Body of Christ, yes. For governments, no.
Incorrect. See above.
Paul is talking to and about believers in the Body of Christ, individuals. He is not, I repeat, NOT talking about governments or authorities.
Paul does not contradict himself when He says that Governments (or "authorities") use swords (i.e. war or judicial punishment) by the authority of God, and that individuals in thte Body of Christ, who do not have the same authority, should focus on spiritual warfare, but he does not say we should not join the military.
For those who do join the military, they are given the authority by the government (who was given authority by God) to do what the government commands them to do, go where the government commands them to go, fight where commanded, assist where commanded.
Worldly governing authorities aren't appointed by God, they are appointed by man. If that was so, them that means that God appointed some pretty horrendous leaders to govern some countries! God has no interest in affairs or the wars of this world, he's interested in the affairs of the heart and spiritual battles. The governing authority over us is the Holy Spirit.
I'm talking about myself. And I know in my heart that it is wrong to take up arms when we belong to God.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.
I'm not saying that individuals in governments are appointed by God, I'm saying that governments are appointed by God. Their authority comes from God. They have the authority from God to wage war and deal with criminal punishment and to provide infrastructure and to protect the rights of their citizens.
What they do with that authority is on them, but they do have it.
So you are saying the president is not appointed by God but Congress is?
marhig
Well-known member
God has power over everything, but governments are not ruled by God, they are worldly and rule this world they are power hungry and care for this world and the things of it. Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world hence he has control of them and Jesus said that this world had nothing in him. God's kingdom is his heavenly kingdom and and those born of him care for that and not the things of this world and that also goes for wars.
Incorrect.
I'm saying that the government as a unit, like the family is a unit and the church is a unit, was given authority by God to do certain things, just like the church is given authority to do certain things, and like the family is given the authority to do certain things.
marhig
Well-known member
Sorry I don't agree, if the government's of this world were under the authority of God, then they would love their enemies and not fight and kill one another. As I said Satan has control of the kingdoms of this world so they belong to him, and those in authority love power, greed and pride and to take the best seats and love to be bowed down to and they backstab one another, many are deceitful, this is not of God, and are doing the devil's will when they kill and war against each other.
If they cared for the things of God then they would live by his will and the world would be in peace, but it isn't. They care for the things of this world more. Jesus didn't care for this world, he cared for God and saving as many through the gospel as he could. And that's what Gods people should be concerned about, letting Christ in them do his work through the Spirit, and bring others back to God. Not entering into wars and picking up arms to kill one another.
Bump for pro-military Christians.
It seems that they don't seem to care what Jesus says.
they come up with all kinds of excuses to justify against Jesus' teaching.
it is so shameful.
Exodus 15:3 KJV The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.
Isaiah 42:13 KJV The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
Jeremiah 10:10 KJV But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Fess up...You had Bybee wacked. Good day to you, sir.
Lon
Well-known member
Trolling. Both posts. Move along. Sorry to see you are not a Christian by identity anymore, though
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Points 4 Reflection.......
Points 4 Reflection.......
Now on the point of a nation's military,...we have to look at the governmental purpose of militaries, and if and HOW they are necessary or 'useful' for a nation's protection, or self-defense. This is one issue, since governments in every human culture have some kind of military, so perhaps having a 'militia' of some kind, whether state or community sponsored, is not 'wrong' or 'evil' in itself, especially if the military is employed in 'self-defense'. So there are various ethical, social, moral and practical issues involved in the operation of a 'military' by any nation, besides the principle of 'killing' or 'murder' being wrong, but in state/nation appointed military operations, it may be 'right' and 'justified' when engaged in a war, IF the ends or 'effect' of such military action acheives a good and peaceful resolve. - not that the 'end' justifies the means here, but 'self-defense' is 'right' and 'just'. Now a military invading or violating the human rights of another nation in a 'selfish' or 'unjustified' reason, and causing harm, death and destruction to innocent people is WRONG.
On that note, which might have been covered already here,....what changes would our nation have to make to TOTALLY obey Jesus in your opinion, regarding the military? You know the military is HUGE here, and has been part of our history and government from the very beginnings. Would you like to see the military and all government budget for such to be re-allocated and distributed elsehwere? Would you like to see us 'disarm' ourselves and our defenses, which COULD leave us open and defenseless if we were bombed or invaded by another country? JUST HOW FAR do we have to be 'pacifists' to properly follow Jesus?
Furthermore, the biblical record is filled with much warfare and violence,...much promoted and commanded by God! - yes, the yhwh of the OT is a "man of war",...he commanded genocide more than once on neighboring cultures,....so perhaps the God of the OT, is not your kind peace-loving, all benevolent gracious Heavenly Father,...the one that Jesus taught about....maybe we have TWO different gods here,....and it looks like the 'God' Jesus taught and revealed,...is more of a 'God' of LOVE, than the OT god and his wrathful ways. Something to think about, since so many people are touting the 'whole bible' as the 'word of God', when it contains much conflicting and contradicting standards and representations of 'God'. Add to this 'bundle' that book of Revelation, which is filled with symbolism of wary, bloodshed, mayhem and so much chaos and destruction,...but "Hey,....its God doing all this to destory the wicked, and glorify His name! Yahoo!" - and all that.
There's alot about this path of 'pacifism' and IF its really the most rational route to go,....while self-defense is a principle that still holds, and there COULD BE justifications for some wars,....after-all, IF you are a Bible Believer,...the 'God' and 'Christ' in that book, are doing plenty of war-monging, so it looks like a pretty "mixed bag" to me,....whatever opinion you have on WAR, and then all the different things the Bible says about war. I dont think its so cut n dry, or 'black or white' since many different factors play into the issue of pacifism. I think its alot more than just quoting the sweet, loving, kind and gentle teachings of Jesus, as tempting as that might be, since we live in a more complicated world at present.
For all who know me, I'm all about love, light, peace, harmony, brotherhood,....and am often criticized for being too 'lovey dovey', new-agey, all 'love and lighty' - anyways,...there could be more to this to consider, granted the muti-plexed CONTEXT of the world-situation we are in TODAY. Yes,...eternal values, principles and ethics always HOLD,...but sometimes the rules are 'modified' in different situational-contexts.
Points 4 Reflection.......
Now on the point of a nation's military,...we have to look at the governmental purpose of militaries, and if and HOW they are necessary or 'useful' for a nation's protection, or self-defense. This is one issue, since governments in every human culture have some kind of military, so perhaps having a 'militia' of some kind, whether state or community sponsored, is not 'wrong' or 'evil' in itself, especially if the military is employed in 'self-defense'. So there are various ethical, social, moral and practical issues involved in the operation of a 'military' by any nation, besides the principle of 'killing' or 'murder' being wrong, but in state/nation appointed military operations, it may be 'right' and 'justified' when engaged in a war, IF the ends or 'effect' of such military action acheives a good and peaceful resolve. - not that the 'end' justifies the means here, but 'self-defense' is 'right' and 'just'. Now a military invading or violating the human rights of another nation in a 'selfish' or 'unjustified' reason, and causing harm, death and destruction to innocent people is WRONG.
On that note, which might have been covered already here,....what changes would our nation have to make to TOTALLY obey Jesus in your opinion, regarding the military? You know the military is HUGE here, and has been part of our history and government from the very beginnings. Would you like to see the military and all government budget for such to be re-allocated and distributed elsehwere? Would you like to see us 'disarm' ourselves and our defenses, which COULD leave us open and defenseless if we were bombed or invaded by another country? JUST HOW FAR do we have to be 'pacifists' to properly follow Jesus?
Furthermore, the biblical record is filled with much warfare and violence,...much promoted and commanded by God! - yes, the yhwh of the OT is a "man of war",...he commanded genocide more than once on neighboring cultures,....so perhaps the God of the OT, is not your kind peace-loving, all benevolent gracious Heavenly Father,...the one that Jesus taught about....maybe we have TWO different gods here,....and it looks like the 'God' Jesus taught and revealed,...is more of a 'God' of LOVE, than the OT god and his wrathful ways. Something to think about, since so many people are touting the 'whole bible' as the 'word of God', when it contains much conflicting and contradicting standards and representations of 'God'. Add to this 'bundle' that book of Revelation, which is filled with symbolism of wary, bloodshed, mayhem and so much chaos and destruction,...but "Hey,....its God doing all this to destory the wicked, and glorify His name! Yahoo!" - and all that.
There's alot about this path of 'pacifism' and IF its really the most rational route to go,....while self-defense is a principle that still holds, and there COULD BE justifications for some wars,....after-all, IF you are a Bible Believer,...the 'God' and 'Christ' in that book, are doing plenty of war-monging, so it looks like a pretty "mixed bag" to me,....whatever opinion you have on WAR, and then all the different things the Bible says about war. I dont think its so cut n dry, or 'black or white' since many different factors play into the issue of pacifism. I think its alot more than just quoting the sweet, loving, kind and gentle teachings of Jesus, as tempting as that might be, since we live in a more complicated world at present.
For all who know me, I'm all about love, light, peace, harmony, brotherhood,....and am often criticized for being too 'lovey dovey', new-agey, all 'love and lighty'
- anyways,...there could be more to this to consider, granted the muti-plexed CONTEXT of the world-situation we are in TODAY. Yes,...eternal values, principles and ethics always HOLD,...but sometimes the rules are 'modified' in different situational-contexts.
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Lon
Well-known member
Troll troll troll troll troll troll troll....