pacifism for true Jesus' followers.
- Thread starter meshak
- Start date
The military of today bears no comparison with the Roman soldiers of Jesus day.
The seeking to justify the murderous military of today, by saying Jesus did not rebuke the Roman soldiers, is plain dishonest.
Tomorrows terrorists will come from citizens who resist the military in their own homeland.
How any Christian could fire on their neigbours is beyond me, but they are soon to do it.
LA
"Jesus" said nothing against "Christians in the military."
Not one word.
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
That is not you no matter how your obvious, regrettable cluelessness in how to study such things out results in your unfortunate twisting of what "Jesus" said in Matthew thru John, as being about and for you.
You obviously mean well.
But just as obvious, you do not know how to properly study such things out.
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11-12.
Consider Abram.
And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations,that they made war with Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar).All these joined together in the Valley of Siddim (that is, the Salt Sea).Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings that were with him came and attacked the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim,and the Horites in their mountain of Seir, as far as El Paran, which is by the wilderness.Then they turned back and came to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and attacked all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites who dwelt in Hazezon Tamar.And the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) went out and joined together in battle in the Valley of Siddimagainst Chedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of nations, Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five.Now the Valley of Siddim was full of asphalt pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled; some fell there, and the remainder fled to the mountains.Then they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their provisions, and went their way. They also took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.Then one who had escaped came and told Abram the Hebrew, for he dwelt by the terebinth trees of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol and brother of Aner; and they were allies with Abram. Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan. He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus. So he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his brother Lot and his goods, as well as the women and the people. And the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley), after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him. - Genesis 14:1-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis14:1-17&version=NKJV
Was Abram wrong for going to war?
marhig
Well-known member
Hi freelight,Now on the point of a nation's military,...we have to look at the governmental purpose of militaries, and if and HOW they are necessary or 'useful' for a nation's protection, or self-defense. This is one issue, since governments in every human culture have some kind of military, so perhaps having a 'militia' of some kind, whether state or community sponsored, is not 'wrong' or 'evil' in itself, especially if the military is employed in 'self-defense'. So there are various ethical, social, moral and practical issues involved in the operation of a 'military' by any nation, besides the principle of 'killing' or 'murder' being wrong, but in state/nation appointed military operations, it may be 'right' and 'justified' when engaged in a war, IF the ends or 'effect' of such military action acheives a good and peaceful resolve. - not that the 'end' justifies the means here, but 'self-defense' is 'right' and 'just'. Now a military invading or violating the human rights of another nation in a 'selfish' or 'unjustified' reason, and causing harm, death and destruction to innocent people is WRONG.
On that note, which might have been covered already here,....what changes would our nation have to make to TOTALLY obey Jesus in your opinion, regarding the military? You know the military is HUGE here, and has been part of our history and government from the very beginnings. Would you like to see the military and all government budget for such to be re-allocated and distributed elsehwere? Would you like to see us 'disarm' ourselves and our defenses, which COULD leave us open and defenseless if we were bombed or invaded by another country? JUST HOW FAR do we have to be 'pacifists' to properly follow Jesus?
Furthermore, the biblical record is filled with much warfare and violence,...much promoted and commanded by God! - yes, the yhwh of the OT is a "man of war",...he commanded genocide more than once on neighboring cultures,....so perhaps the God of the OT, is not your kind peace-loving, all benevolent gracious Heavenly Father,...the one that Jesus taught about....maybe we have TWO different gods here,....and it looks like the 'God' Jesus taught and revealed,...is more of a 'God' of LOVE, than the OT god and his wrathful ways. Something to think about, since so many people are touting the 'whole bible' as the 'word of God', when it contains much conflicting and contradicting standards and representations of 'God'. Add to this 'bundle' that book of Revelation, which is filled with symbolism of wary, bloodshed, mayhem and so much chaos and destruction,...but "Hey,....its God doing all this to destory the wicked, and glorify His name! Yahoo!" - and all that.
There's alot about this path of 'pacifism' and IF its really the most rational route to go,....while self-defense is a principle that still holds, and there COULD BE justifications for some wars,....after-all, IF you are a Bible Believer,...the 'God' and 'Christ' in that book, are doing plenty of war-monging, so it looks like a pretty "mixed bag" to me,....whatever opinion you have on WAR, and then all the different things the Bible says about war. I dont think its so cut n dry, or 'black or white' since many different factors play into the issue of pacifism. I think its alot more than just quoting the sweet, loving, kind and gentle teachings of Jesus, as tempting as that might be, since we live in a more complicated world at present.
For all who know me, I'm all about love, light, peace, harmony, brotherhood,....and am often criticized for being too 'lovey dovey', new-agey, all 'love and lighty'- anyways,...there could be more to this to consider, granted the muti-plexed CONTEXT of the world-situation we are in TODAY. Yes,...eternal values, principles and ethics always HOLD,...but sometimes the rules are 'modified' in different situational-contexts.
The point is, should those who are born of God and belong to the body of Christ, take up arms and war? Would Jesus have done this? No, he wouldn't so neither should those who belong to him. This world will war and fight, Satan is over all the kingdoms of it, so he will have them all killing each other for power and wealth and greed. But that's not the way of God, this world and it's ways are not of God, and killing innocent people is not of God either(and many are innocent who are killed in war). God sent Jesus to save not kill, and that's what those who belong to God will be wanting to to do. They will want to save others through Christ.
I was quoted verses out of Romans 13 yesterday that supposedly promote war. But also in that chapter was this.
The following is how those who truly follow Christ live.
Romans 13
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
marhig
Well-known member
Matthew 5
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed.are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when.men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you
Those born of God should live by the will of God and bring his love, light and the life of Christ to those we meet, and leave any vengeance to God. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.
We don't need to take vengeance, God does that in his time.
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed.are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when.men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you
Those born of God should live by the will of God and bring his love, light and the life of Christ to those we meet, and leave any vengeance to God. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.
We don't need to take vengeance, God does that in his time.
So this is your best shot?
And your disregard that Jesus and His followers did not kill anyone to protect themselves.
Did you even read the OP? I don't think so.
Those pro-military Christians continuing with worldly mentality, not spiritual at all.
Christianity is all about spiritual things and pursue spiritual things.
Jesus followers are born again Christians and concentrate on God's kingdom.
If you are not willing to give up worldly mentality and desires, you will not be in God's kingdom.
Christianity is all about spiritual things and pursue spiritual things.
Jesus followers are born again Christians and concentrate on God's kingdom.
If you are not willing to give up worldly mentality and desires, you will not be in God's kingdom.
If they volunteer for military service, then yes.
If they don't volunteer, then they should not be forced to serve.
The fact is He didn't do this, because that wasn't His goal.
If a Christian works for the government, does he have the authority of the government behind him?
And what's the best way to stop those who are killing innocents?
In the war on terror that President Bush started against the terrorists, we had very few innocent people caught in the line of fire. Why? Because our technology had advanced enough that we were able to be surgical with our strikes, killing only those who deserve to die.
Innocent casualties are a part of war that cannot be avoided, but we should do as much as possible to minimize the number of innocents killed or injured.
Correct. However, "Christians" don't have authority over the government, the government has authority over its citizens, and that includes Christians. Authority flows downhill, not uphill.
The word used in verse 9 that you bolded? It does not mean "kill". It means "murder", just like the word in Exodus means "murder" and not "kill".
For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Romans 13:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:9&version=NKJV
“You shall not murder. - Exodus 20:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:13&version=NKJV
‘You shall not murder. - Deuteronomy 5:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy5:17&version=NKJV
If God said "you shall not kill" instead of "you shall not murder", then He would have contradicted Himself when He says to execute someone who strikes his father or mother:
“And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:15&version=NKJV
who kidnaps:
“He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:16&version=NKJV
who curses his father or mother:
“And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:17&version=NKJV
if an unborn baby is killed:
“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, - Exodus 21:17,22-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:17,22-23&version=NKJV
God does not contradict Himself, though, so when He says:
“Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man. - Genesis 9:6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis9:6&version=NKJV
And:
And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?” - Ezekiel 13:19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel13:19&version=NKJV
He really does want us to put to death those deserving of death, and keep those alive who are innocent of crime deserving of death.
One more passage for you:
"To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:
A time to be born, And a time to die;
A time to plant, And a time to pluck what is planted;
A time to kill, And a time to heal;
A time to break down, And a time to build up;
A time to weep, And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn, And a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to gain, And a time to lose;
A time to keep, And a time to throw away;
A time to tear, And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence, And a time to speak;
A time to love, And a time to hate;
A time of war, And a time of peace." - Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes3:1-8&version=NKJV
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How does one make peace, Marhig? When the world is at war, how can a nation make another peaceful?
God appointed the government to be His ministers, avengers of wrath on those who practice evil.
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. - Romans 13:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans13:1-7&version=NKJVa
Once upon a time
Once upon a time
Once upon a time,
Meshak walks into a bar and everyone is brawling. Meshak orders "near-beer", takes a seat on a stool and watches intently.
Meshak sees a JW walk in and instantly get waylayed in the commotion.
10 minutes later, the brawl dies down and Meshak is smiling ear to ear. The bartender is irritated and asks, "What is so great about my Bar being destroyed?" Meshak replies, "You no follow Jesus."
All the patrons turn and look at Meshak and ask what she means, So she answers, "I drink Near Beer because I'm a good Christian. I didn't lift a finger to fight because I'm a good Christian. I tell everyone how much they fail to follow Jesus because I'm a good Christian."
Suddenly, the saloon doors swing open and Jesus and the 12 Disciples come in.
Jesus looks down at the JW that got waylayed and gives him a hand to his feat. Jesus asks if anyone is friends with the JW and no one speaks up.
Jesus looks at Meshak and points out that they are both JW's, but Meshak says that only a non-follower of Jesus would be involved in violence. Jesus replies that only a non-follower would watch their friend get waylayed. Jesus gives Meshak another chance and suggests she orders her buddy a drink...
Meshak orders another "near beer". Jesus looks seriously miffed and explains that the Devil brings that stuff in daily! He explained that no matter how much you drink, you just don't get refreshed. He grabs a glass of water from the bar and it turns to the good stuff. He hands it to the JW that was waylayed and signals to the 12 that it's time to get out of there.
Meshak looks at the 12 and says, "You all don't follow the real Jesus!"
Jesus looks with pity at Meshak and says, "It will all be Okay, I died for you and all your sins are forgiven. The day you believe in Me is the day you'll know you're saved!"
Meshak looks extra proud and kind of smirks disrespectfully, then says, "Next thing you know, you'll be claiming to be God!"
- The End
Once upon a time
Once upon a time,
Meshak walks into a bar and everyone is brawling. Meshak orders "near-beer", takes a seat on a stool and watches intently.
Meshak sees a JW walk in and instantly get waylayed in the commotion.
10 minutes later, the brawl dies down and Meshak is smiling ear to ear. The bartender is irritated and asks, "What is so great about my Bar being destroyed?" Meshak replies, "You no follow Jesus."
All the patrons turn and look at Meshak and ask what she means, So she answers, "I drink Near Beer because I'm a good Christian. I didn't lift a finger to fight because I'm a good Christian. I tell everyone how much they fail to follow Jesus because I'm a good Christian."
Suddenly, the saloon doors swing open and Jesus and the 12 Disciples come in.
Jesus looks down at the JW that got waylayed and gives him a hand to his feat. Jesus asks if anyone is friends with the JW and no one speaks up.
Jesus looks at Meshak and points out that they are both JW's, but Meshak says that only a non-follower of Jesus would be involved in violence. Jesus replies that only a non-follower would watch their friend get waylayed. Jesus gives Meshak another chance and suggests she orders her buddy a drink...
Meshak orders another "near beer". Jesus looks seriously miffed and explains that the Devil brings that stuff in daily! He explained that no matter how much you drink, you just don't get refreshed. He grabs a glass of water from the bar and it turns to the good stuff. He hands it to the JW that was waylayed and signals to the 12 that it's time to get out of there.
Meshak looks at the 12 and says, "You all don't follow the real Jesus!"
Jesus looks with pity at Meshak and says, "It will all be Okay, I died for you and all your sins are forgiven. The day you believe in Me is the day you'll know you're saved!"
Meshak looks extra proud and kind of smirks disrespectfully, then says, "Next thing you know, you'll be claiming to be God!"
- The End
Well done, EE....Well done...
Saint John W., I just printed your kind words out and hung them above my fireplace. :cheers:
I then printed out Meshak's OP for this thread and pinned it to my dartboard, next to hippies, tree huggers and the remake of Nightmare on Elm-street.
- EE
John,
You cannot see EE's sleaziness and falls into it.
You just dropped your credibility even more, friend.
You are just a mouth just like typical forum members here.
I don't think he cares about his standing with you (at least as far as credibility is concerned).
You mock Jesus by failing to understand his message.
We don't because we understand his message.
We don't promote sin, we promote justice.
You promote apathy, which is a sin.