pacifism for true Jesus' followers.
- Thread starter meshak
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Meta-tations from freelight......
Meta-tations from freelight......
I find it interesting that some use OT passages to portray a picture of 'God' and system of justice that has a different nuance and emphasis than what is presented in the NT (an assumed new covenant and dispensation),....so it seems like 'cherry picking' more or less, since there are many laws and rules in the OT that Christians do not even follow or honor, while even modern orthodox Jews have neglected to follow some, interpreting those harder sayings as merely 'figurative',....and relegating those to the archaic past, primitive rules no longer fit or logical for a modern age
The beloved Jesus in the gospels is not always so 'consistent' in his teachings, at least all we have is what writers and scribes have left us, ...but in general his seminal teaching as espoused in the Sermon of the mount, was very benevolent, kind with much forbearing love,...which is quite contrary to some of the cruel behavior and commands of the 'YHWH' of the OT. - this is why some schools rejected YHWH in the OT as being the 'true god', and deemed him a lower kind of 'demiurge',...while the loving and benovelent Father-God of Jesus was believed to the 'True God' and 'Most High' (we see this among the Marcionites, some Gnostic sects, and still held among some today, among more liberal free-lance gnostics). - who knows what 'God' or 'gods' were really in charge in the OT, as much embellishement and creative license could have been exercised freely by the scribes who penned the stories. Hence we are to use our own intellectual and spiritual faculties and discernment in our reading of religious literature.
I think more could be said of the kind and forgiving Jesus, than the war-lord avenging 'Christ' image, but hey,...different strokes for different folks. Don't forget who said, "those who take up the sword, shall DIE by the sword". Elsewhere in Matthew, Jesus spoke of NOT coming into the world to bring peace, but a SWORD,....but what did he mean by this? Its 'figurative',....more symbolic of his 'teaching-word' that would cause division among souls, because the truth of his word (a sword)...would divide those who wanted truth, from those who reject the way of life, truth, wisdom. This is the same 'sword' that proceeds from the mouth of God's Messiah,.....it goes forth to both CUT and HEAL. - since it is by Love and Wisdom that God GOVERNS,...he mediates his judgments which wholly satisfy both justice and mercy,....and his love always triumphs over justice, UNLESS by divine law, some souls have chosen a path of total self-destruction, and it is too late for such a soul to be 'saved', whereby it is then disintegrated (total perishing, soul-death, extinction). Love will do all that it can to save, heal, redeem and restore. - it must only then be by our own freedom of choice that we ourselves CHOOSE life or death, which ultimately leads to life and peace, or death and destruction. "I set before you life or death" saith the Lord.
If Jesus is truly the Prince of Peace, it is because he brings the sword of truth to cut the false from the true, and hands that sword over to us, so we become victors, and triumph over death. The way of Love conquers fear, and light outshines the darkness.
There is nothing wrong with self defense of course whereby one may be harmed in the act of defending self or loved ones,....but the matter of military actions and large-scale killings in national wars, or adopted a warmonging way of life in God's name,...that's another matter to flesh out.
Meta-tations from freelight......
I find it interesting that some use OT passages to portray a picture of 'God' and system of justice that has a different nuance and emphasis than what is presented in the NT (an assumed new covenant and dispensation),....so it seems like 'cherry picking' more or less, since there are many laws and rules in the OT that Christians do not even follow or honor, while even modern orthodox Jews have neglected to follow some, interpreting those harder sayings as merely 'figurative',....and relegating those to the archaic past, primitive rules no longer fit or logical for a modern age
The beloved Jesus in the gospels is not always so 'consistent' in his teachings, at least all we have is what writers and scribes have left us, ...but in general his seminal teaching as espoused in the Sermon of the mount, was very benevolent, kind with much forbearing love,...which is quite contrary to some of the cruel behavior and commands of the 'YHWH' of the OT. - this is why some schools rejected YHWH in the OT as being the 'true god', and deemed him a lower kind of 'demiurge',...while the loving and benovelent Father-God of Jesus was believed to the 'True God' and 'Most High' (we see this among the Marcionites, some Gnostic sects, and still held among some today, among more liberal free-lance gnostics). - who knows what 'God' or 'gods' were really in charge in the OT, as much embellishement and creative license could have been exercised freely by the scribes who penned the stories. Hence we are to use our own intellectual and spiritual faculties and discernment in our reading of religious literature.
I think more could be said of the kind and forgiving Jesus, than the war-lord avenging 'Christ' image, but hey,...different strokes for different folks. Don't forget who said, "those who take up the sword, shall DIE by the sword". Elsewhere in Matthew, Jesus spoke of NOT coming into the world to bring peace, but a SWORD,....but what did he mean by this? Its 'figurative',....more symbolic of his 'teaching-word' that would cause division among souls, because the truth of his word (a sword)...would divide those who wanted truth, from those who reject the way of life, truth, wisdom. This is the same 'sword' that proceeds from the mouth of God's Messiah,.....it goes forth to both CUT and HEAL. - since it is by Love and Wisdom that God GOVERNS,...he mediates his judgments which wholly satisfy both justice and mercy,....and his love always triumphs over justice, UNLESS by divine law, some souls have chosen a path of total self-destruction, and it is too late for such a soul to be 'saved', whereby it is then disintegrated (total perishing, soul-death, extinction). Love will do all that it can to save, heal, redeem and restore. - it must only then be by our own freedom of choice that we ourselves CHOOSE life or death, which ultimately leads to life and peace, or death and destruction. "I set before you life or death" saith the Lord.
If Jesus is truly the Prince of Peace, it is because he brings the sword of truth to cut the false from the true, and hands that sword over to us, so we become victors, and triumph over death. The way of Love conquers fear, and light outshines the darkness.
There is nothing wrong with self defense of course whereby one may be harmed in the act of defending self or loved ones,....but the matter of military actions and large-scale killings in national wars, or adopted a warmonging way of life in God's name,...that's another matter to flesh out.
Lon
Well-known member
Blasphemous - are you cruising for another time out?
Blasphemous - are you cruising for another time out?
lain: The "God" of the OT is the same as the NT. There is no difference. You say you believe in some kind of Absolute, but without that Absolute, there is no way to check when you and I disagree. Every religion tries to reach God, on their own power, their own sensibilities. Christianity is the ONLY different one among all: It is God, coming to earth and talking to man. The judgements means He is serious and the problems are serious. The NT sets the stage for the NEED of a Savior. You've rejected this, so your wishy washy is all because of your relative truths and seeking what you want, rather than Who God is. What you 'want' has become your absolute. Problem: There is NO WAY to call it an absolute, without stepping on another's. The ONLY one who has a right to step on all of our desires for absolutes, is God. A long time ago, I determined, no matter who God is, He will dictate to me Who He is bar nothing. Job 13:15
1 John 5:13-15 God answers my prayers. One of the marks of an Absolute Bible, says that if we are God's, He will answer our prayers.
He is the only way I could ever even know I have an absolute. There is nothing in me that suggests, otherwise, that I even know what an absolute is, because "I" am not absolute.
You've argued that you believe an Absolute exists. If so, it has to be outside of yourself AND because you are not it, it means YOU have to change some of your thinking. This, frankly, is blasphemy.
lain:
HE is life. The ONLY life. John 14:6 It isn't 'a' life. He is THE Life. THE Truth. THE Way. John 15:5, without JESUS, you can do absolutely-no-one-thing. Colossians 1:17 Acts 17:28
Blasphemous - are you cruising for another time out?
No, and the 'winking' stuff makes you look insincere about important matters, especially where there is strong disagreement AND you are about to blaspheme God.I find it interesting that some use OT passages to portray a picture of 'God' and system of justice that has a different nuance and emphasis than what is presented in the NT (an assumed new covenant and dispensation),....so it seems like 'cherry picking' more or less, since there are many laws and rules in the OT that Christians do not even follow or honor, while even modern orthodox Jews have neglected to follow some, interpreting those harder sayings as merely 'figurative',....and relegating those to the archaic past, primitive rules no longer fit or logical for a modern age
lain: The "God" of the OT is the same as the NT. There is no difference. You say you believe in some kind of Absolute, but without that Absolute, there is no way to check when you and I disagree. Every religion tries to reach God, on their own power, their own sensibilities. Christianity is the ONLY different one among all: It is God, coming to earth and talking to man. The judgements means He is serious and the problems are serious. The NT sets the stage for the NEED of a Savior. You've rejected this, so your wishy washy is all because of your relative truths and seeking what you want, rather than Who God is. What you 'want' has become your absolute. Problem: There is NO WAY to call it an absolute, without stepping on another's. The ONLY one who has a right to step on all of our desires for absolutes, is God. A long time ago, I determined, no matter who God is, He will dictate to me Who He is bar nothing. Job 13:151 John 5:13-15 God answers my prayers. One of the marks of an Absolute Bible, says that if we are God's, He will answer our prayers.
He is the only way I could ever even know I have an absolute. There is nothing in me that suggests, otherwise, that I even know what an absolute is, because "I" am not absolute.
Your absolute, is you. As long as you actually naively and/or arrogantly think so, every other being is at 'your' mercy as a standard (Absolute).
You've argued that you believe an Absolute exists. If so, it has to be outside of yourself AND because you are not it, it means YOU have to change some of your thinking. This, frankly, is blasphemy.
Again, this is YOUR bad summation and problem. You are wrong. Flat out. And this again, is blasphemy, you a mere man, trying to correct God. :dizzy:
No. "B-l-a-s-p-h-e-m-y!" You don't want 'part of God' because you don't like Him.
This is just wishy washy John Lennon sentimentality that is wrong. One day His Love will triumph, but NOT over Justice. It will reign because there will be no "injustice." Think harder, longer, rightly. You are wrong, again, as usual.
Yeah, see, you say there is an "Absolute" then every comment you make shows you don't really believe in an Absolute
lain:HE is life. The ONLY life. John 14:6 It isn't 'a' life. He is THE Life. THE Truth. THE Way. John 15:5, without JESUS, you can do absolutely-no-one-thing. Colossians 1:17 Acts 17:28
Job 13:15
Luke 7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum. 7:2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. 7:3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. 7:4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: 7:5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue. 7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: 7:7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 7:10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.
Here he is again...
Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
And yet, God was just fine with that Military man...
In fact, he was a Commandar of one hundred soldiers.
For the Lord had respected and had emphasized respect for the laws of that secular Government that Israel was then under...that God Himself had put Israel under...
John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Mark 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.
Anyway you look at it, most western Christians believe in the power of money and the gun to get and protect what they want.
The churches believe in the exact same things that the non Christian does.
They are apostates, and will be destroyed by their own idols in the hands of their enemies.
LA
The churches believe in the exact same things that the non Christian does.
They are apostates, and will be destroyed by their own idols in the hands of their enemies.
LA
Exactly, that's why they don't even care what Jesus teaches or commands.
Jesus says His followers are not of the world and they don't even know what Jesus is talking about in this regard.
whats your point?
They are so busy studying Calvin, Nelson Darby and RCC and etc... and they don't know what Jesus teaches which is so clear teachings.
And they claim to be saved and true Christians. and everyone else who don't agree with their man-made doctrines are cults.
what a world.
I posted what my point is...
But here it is again:
1- That God was just fine with that Military man...
In fact, he was a Commandar of one hundred soldiers.
My second point was...
2 - That the Lord Himself had not only respected, but had emphasized respect for the laws of that secular Government that Israel was then under...that God Himself had put Israel under...
But you often end up asking someone what their point was.
Meaning you have very poor comprehension skills.
So I am not surprised you are so confused about what the Scripture actually teaches about one thing or another.
You have no business claiming you have understood the Scripture.
Because you often show you often can't even figure out the simplest of posts posted to you.
That you will take wrong my having to point this out to you only proves how spiritually immature you actually are.
You expect shak to read that much?
Unfortunately, yours is perhaps a valid point as well.
Say too little and she fails to understand what was meant.
Say too much; expect the same result too often, as well.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
A few things first, then BACK on subject
A few things first, then BACK on subject
Again, Lon does not understand the metaphysical, philosophical or religious insights posited by freelight. His charge of 'blasphemy' is equally as misplaced, since an open, inquisitive and cricitcal investigation of religious matters is not 'blasphemous' but being 'intellectually honest' within a scholarly breadth.
I would try to understand the 'content' instead of criticizing various emoticons and misconstruing my commentary. I could equally use no emoticons whatsoever, there are mere accents, take them as you wish. But with a grain of salt as well.
~*~*~
Now on the topic, we've already covered that the 'sword' that Jesus brings is the power of his teaching-word, and those who reject it will be cut thereby, (the dividing factor) hence their adversarial stance against others within a household, since Jesus divides people by the truth he offers. By karmic law (reaping what one sows)....."if you take up the sword, you will perish by the sword", so this universal principle holds, since violence begets violence. Our conclusions will also be conditioned by situtational-circumstances, so 'context' is key....so taking up the sword for self-defense may not always mean you will die by the same means, just for defending yourself, as if to make self-defense unnecessary or discouraged.
It also depends on our definition of 'pacificist', - We see that Jesus taught one to stand for what is right, true, just, good...but in a way that does not HARM or KILL another. Most of his teaching taught a 'non-resistence' approach ("resist not an evil person"), but not a totally 'passive' demeanor, for we are to be the light and salt of the earth,...but LOVING others (friends and enemies) with the all-inclusive love of God, since his love extends to all people (good and evil). - it is by our showing of love...that we prove we are God's children, and our LOVE makes us 'perfect' even as our Father in heaven is perfect,..because it is His love acting THRU us. We can be spiritual warriors in the kingdom, without causing physical harm or violence. In the Indian traditions this is called 'ahimsa' ('not to injure, non-violence').
I don't see how loving our enemies can include killing them, or what ethical law or rule is violated by taking another life in times of war, if having a military is in itself evil,...since natural defense of a country from enemies seems a rational and logical endeavor, when a country may need to defend itself against invasion, destruction, take over, etc. It comes down more to personal belief and choice to NOT engage in any kind of violence or killing, then one's opinion on the military in general. If Jesus used force in some situations to prove a point (whipping, chasing the money-changers out of the temple), he did so purposely, BUT he NEVER endorsed or commanded one to Harm or Kill another for any reason, let alone in his name.
A few things first, then BACK on subject
No, and the 'winking' stuff makes you look insincere about important matters, especially where there is strong disagreement AND you are about to blaspheme God.
1 John 5:13-15 God answers my prayers. One of the marks of an Absolute Bible, says that if we are God's, He will answer our prayers.
He is the only way I could ever even know I have an absolute. There is nothing in me that suggests, otherwise, that I even know what an absolute is, because "I" am not absolute.
Your absolute, is you. As long as you actually naively and/or arrogantly think so, every other being is at 'your' mercy as a standard (Absolute).
You've argued that you believe an Absolute exists. If so, it has to be outside of yourself AND because you are not it, it means YOU have to change some of your thinking. This, frankly, is blasphemy.
Again, this is YOUR bad summation and problem. You are wrong. Flat out. And this again, is blasphemy, you a mere man, trying to correct God. :dizzy:
No. "B-l-a-s-p-h-e-m-y!" You don't want 'part of God' because you don't like Him.
This is just wishy washy John Lennon sentimentality that is wrong. One day His Love will triumph, but NOT over Justice. It will reign because there will be no "injustice." Think harder, longer, rightly. You are wrong, again, as usual.
Yeah, see, you say there is an "Absolute" then every comment you make shows you don't really believe in an Absolute
HE is life. The ONLY life. John 14:6 It isn't 'a' life. He is THE Life. THE Truth. THE Way. John 15:5, without JESUS, you can do absolutely-no-one-thing. Colossians 1:17 Acts 17:28
Job 13:15
Again, Lon does not understand the metaphysical, philosophical or religious insights posited by freelight. His charge of 'blasphemy' is equally as misplaced, since an open, inquisitive and cricitcal investigation of religious matters is not 'blasphemous' but being 'intellectually honest' within a scholarly breadth.
I would try to understand the 'content' instead of criticizing various emoticons and misconstruing my commentary. I could equally use no emoticons whatsoever, there are mere accents, take them as you wish. But with a grain of salt as well.
~*~*~
Now on the topic, we've already covered that the 'sword' that Jesus brings is the power of his teaching-word, and those who reject it will be cut thereby, (the dividing factor) hence their adversarial stance against others within a household, since Jesus divides people by the truth he offers. By karmic law (reaping what one sows)....."if you take up the sword, you will perish by the sword", so this universal principle holds, since violence begets violence. Our conclusions will also be conditioned by situtational-circumstances, so 'context' is key....so taking up the sword for self-defense may not always mean you will die by the same means, just for defending yourself, as if to make self-defense unnecessary or discouraged.
It also depends on our definition of 'pacificist', - We see that Jesus taught one to stand for what is right, true, just, good...but in a way that does not HARM or KILL another. Most of his teaching taught a 'non-resistence' approach ("resist not an evil person"), but not a totally 'passive' demeanor, for we are to be the light and salt of the earth,...but LOVING others (friends and enemies) with the all-inclusive love of God, since his love extends to all people (good and evil). - it is by our showing of love...that we prove we are God's children, and our LOVE makes us 'perfect' even as our Father in heaven is perfect,..because it is His love acting THRU us. We can be spiritual warriors in the kingdom, without causing physical harm or violence. In the Indian traditions this is called 'ahimsa' ('not to injure, non-violence').
I don't see how loving our enemies can include killing them, or what ethical law or rule is violated by taking another life in times of war, if having a military is in itself evil,...since natural defense of a country from enemies seems a rational and logical endeavor, when a country may need to defend itself against invasion, destruction, take over, etc. It comes down more to personal belief and choice to NOT engage in any kind of violence or killing, then one's opinion on the military in general. If Jesus used force in some situations to prove a point (whipping, chasing the money-changers out of the temple), he did so purposely, BUT he NEVER endorsed or commanded one to Harm or Kill another for any reason, let alone in his name.
All irrelevant to the OP.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
The OP is especially warning the saints concerning the time the saints will soon enter into.
LA
No, and the 'winking' stuff makes you look insincere about important matters, especially where there is strong disagreement AND you are about to blaspheme God.
Jesus was not alive in the OT.
God is now dealing with men through Jesus Christ, which was not the case in the OT times.
While God Himself has not changed, His dealings with man have.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
This does not mean that Jesus is only a mouthpiece for God, but that the resurrected man Jesus is the ruler of His Body, the Church the elect, and that God rules over the earth according to the will of His Son in real time, now.
LA
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” - John 8:57-58 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:57-58&version=NKJV
Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” - Romans 3:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:4&version=NKJV
The Father of Jesus was before Abraham.
Only in the absoluteness of Jesus coming was He in the heart of the Father before Jesus was born.
Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
LA
Your are so good at evading the point. You are not so honest.
You cannot make a point because you have no legit argument. this is your writing style. On the surface, you appear to know what you are talking about but you don't.
Good example is that you have avoided most of my questions threw at you.
You have nothing meaningful to say except cheering your MADs friends.
You don't even know what they are talking about either.
Usual elusive and pointless post.
You have no idea what Christianity is all about. This is the case with most seemingly scholastic and intelligent posters such as Lon and AMR.
I have exposed pretentious EE, Lon and now you, my dear.
good day.