ECT Open Theism debate

[JudgeRightly]

You see? That's why I discard the scripture that does not harmonize with God and Jesus' love.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. - Revelation 22:18-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation22:18-19&version=NKJV

 

[Clete]

I don't see that as you do.

I just read it.

I just haven't got it in me to rejoice at seeing anyone suffer, especially thinking of them being chucked into lakes of fire.

That is a flaw in your character. It comes from thinking that people are basically good instead of the poor, dumb, blind and wretchedly evil beings that they are.

The Bible is full of deeper meanings, I don't see the fires of hell to mean the same as many do here.

Why don't you just go write your own bible, then? Why bother with one someone else wrote where all this ugly punishment of the wicked stuff happens?

Can you see from that Psalm that is not all a natural interpretation?

Like I said, I just read it. There's not too many different ways to take the notion that the righteous will wash their feet in the blood of the wicked." It's pretty darn clear.

As I said God is a righteous judge, he'll do as he sees right.

And you won't like a minute of it.

That makes you ungodly, marhig. The goal of the Christian life isn't to be mild and pleasant and nice and touchy-freely and warm hearted. Its about finding out what is right and conforming yourself to that. God is right. God is just. If you don't like what God does then that makes you the unjust one, not God.

When God commits judgement to the saints on judgment day (I Cor. 6), what are you going to do, let everyone off or refuse to participate? You need to wake up and get on the same page that God is on. People who are nicer than God are not better than God, they are evil.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[marhig]

Do you rejoice in everything God does? Do you not think God's judgments are just? So if He decides justice needs to include bloody vengeance, or even hell fire, do you reject it?

No I don't reject it, I just don't see it as many of you do. And too many here are judges, and not only do they seem to want to see others suffer, but it seems like some get some sort of pleasure out of it. God will judge the wicked, but many seem to have a heart where they want a ringside seat to watch, rather than bare witness to the truth and have hope that through Christ some will be saved, and leave it all in God's hands to do the judging.

What was Abraham like to those in Sodom? It was full of wickedness, did he want watch them all be thrown into a lake of fire?

What about the heart of Jesus, when those in Samaria didn't receive him, and what it says about it in Luke 9

James and John said Lord wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did, and Jesus turned and rebuked them, and Said, you know not what manner of Spirit you are of. For the son of man is not come to distroy men's loves, but to save them.

Surely, if Christ is in our hearts shouldn't we have hope for others? That Christ through us can save as many as possible and leave the judgement of what is happening to others when they die to God?

Whatever wickedness is done here should first be dealt with by the law courts. And then God will deal with those who commit wicked acts when they die in the way he sees fit.

 

[meshak]

And that makes you judge of God, I guess. And anyone that can judge God makes himself to be God.

My goodness.

what a concept.

 

[meshak]

And that makes you judge of God, I guess. And anyone that can judge God makes himself to be God.

Just because I don't read the Bible as you do that makes me a judge of God?

Not!

 

[marhig]

I just read it.


That is a flaw in your character. It comes from thinking that people are basically good instead of the poor, dumb, blind and wretchedly evil beings that they are.


Why don't you just go write your own bible, then? Why bother with one someone else wrote where all this ugly punishment of the wicked stuff happens?


Like I said, I just read it. There's not too many different ways to take the notion that the righteous will wash their feet in the blood of the wicked." It's pretty darn clear.


And you won't like a minute of it.

That makes you ungodly, marhig. The goal of the Christian life isn't to be mild and pleasant and nice and touchy-freely and warm hearted. Its about finding out what is right and conforming yourself to that. God is right. God is just. If you don't like what God does then that makes you the unjust one, not God.

When God commits judgement to the saints on judgment day (I Cor. 6), what are you going to do, let everyone off or refuse to participate? You need to wake up and get on the same page that God is on. People who are nicer than God are not better than God, they are evil.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I know God has wrath and he will revenge his own, but I don't see the lake of fire as you all do.

As for my flaws, I've got many, I'm not perfect, and God will be my judge.

And I'm very straight and I'm not always softly softly when it comes to God, but I just don't say that I'll get some kind of enjoyment out of watching the wicked getting thrown into a lake of fire. That just sounds so wrong, why would anyone think like that. I'd just rather speak the truth and leave all the eternal judging to God.

I've even heard one person a while ago here, say to another that they will enjoy watching them burn in a lake of fire just because they didn't believe in the teachings that they believed in. That's how bad we can get.

And there are many Christians with a more wicked heart than many who others look down on. Just because they look all holy on the outside, doesn't mean they are. That's why only God truly knows the heart of all of us, and only he can properly judge us all.

Also, what do you believe the righteous washing their feet in the blood of the wicked to mean? Do you see that as natural?

 

[meshak]

I know God has wrath and he will revenge his own, but I don't see the lake of fire as you all do.

As for my flaws, I've got many, I'm not perfect, and God will be my judge.

And I'm very straight and I'm not always softly softly when it comes to God, but I just don't say that I'll get some kind of enjoyment out of watching the wicked getting thrown into a lake of fire. That just sounds so wrong, why would anyone think like that. I'd just rather speak the truth and leave all the eternal judging to God.

I've even heard one person a while ago here, say to another that they will enjoy watching them burn in a lake of fire just because they didn't believe in the teachings that they believed in. That's how bad we can get.

And there are many Christians with a more wicked heart than many who others look down on. Just because they look all holy on the outside, doesn't mean they are. That's why only God truly knows the heart of all of us, and only he can properly judge us all.

Also, what do you believe the righteous washing their feet in the blood of the wicked to mean? Do you see that as natural?

If we read the Bible whole contextually which is God and Jesus are love, we cannot go wrong.

 

[Derf]

No I don't reject it, I just don't see it as many of you do. And too many here are judges, and not only do they seem to want to see others suffer, but it seems like some get some sort of pleasure out of it. God will judge the wicked, but many seem to have a heart where they want a ringside seat to watch, rather than bare witness to the truth and have hope that through Christ some will be saved, and leave it all in God's hands to do the judging.

What was Abraham like to those in Sodom? It was full of wickedness, did he want watch them all be thrown into a lake of fire?

What about the heart of Jesus, when those in Samaria didn't receive him, and what it says about it in Luke 9

James and John said Lord wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did, and Jesus turned and rebuked them, and Said, you know not what manner of Spirit you are of. For the son of man is not come to distroy men's loves, but to save them.

Surely, if Christ is in our hearts shouldn't we have hope for others? That Christ through us can save as many as possible and leave the judgement of what is happening to others when they die to God?

Whatever wickedness is done here should first be dealt with by the law courts. And then God will deal with those who commit wicked acts when they die in the way he sees fit.

Do you also reject the scriptures that tell of painful judgment? And the psalms that rejoice at enemies' destruction?

Hope for others, yes, but should we hope for those that are in the process of being destroyed by fire? Or should we acknowledge God's wisdom and love in the destruction of the wicked?

Was it wrong for the psalmist to write this:
O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! [Psa 137:8 ESV]
Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock! [Psa 137:9 ESV]

Did Abraham really want the town of Sodom saved, or did he just want his nephew (and family) saved? And what reason did he give to God for saving the town--that some would repent?

 

[meshak]

Do you also reject the scriptures that tell of painful judgment? And the psalms that rejoice at enemies' destruction?

There are many verse from psalms rejoicing enemy's destruction and praying for God will punish them.

Do you remember what God said to Solomon that because he did not pray for his enemy's destruction, He granted His request?

Those kind of prayer is not seeking after God's heart.

God loves Jesus so much because He is so loving, IMO.

 

[Derf]

Just because I don't read the Bible as you do that makes me a judge of God?

Not!

You didn't say you read it differently--you said you discard the verses you don't like:

You see? That's why I discard the scripture that does not harmonize with God and Jesus' love.

 

[meshak]

You didn't say you read it differently--you said you discard the verses you don't like:

you are nitpicking.

 

[meshak]

You didn't say you read it differently--you said you discard the verses you don't like:

there are simple ways to serve God and Jesus.

Trying to explain what does not make sense to God's will will not do it.

Our knowledge will not save us, doing God's will do.

 

[Derf]

There are many verse from psalms rejoicing enemy's destruction and praying for God will punish them.

Do you remember what God said to Solomon that because he did not pray for his enemy's destruction, He granted His request?

Should we sing those psalms?



He didn't say He wouldn't have granted the other requests if Solomon would have made them. But he added more to what Solomon requested. His was a better request, but the others were still likely to be honored.

 

[meshak]

Should we sing those psalms?

I will not rejoice over anyone's destruction.

 

[meshak]

Why are you guys so passionate about wicked ones punishment?

 

[meshak]

That is the same kind of mentality as you guys call Jesus' followers unsaved or non-believer or cult just because they don't agree with your doctrines.

 

[Tambora]

They'd have to answer, "Both!", right? Otherwise, God is not Omnipresent. ("They" being the Calvinists, by the way.)

Good point!
Yes, that would be the logical conclusion of their stance if they insist that GOD is everywhere at all times.
Which creates a quandary.
GOD would have to be bound to be simultaneously present inside and outside of time at every moment since creation.
GOD could not "move" in and out of time, but would have to always be wholly present in both.

Another good question is, "Has God always existed inside and outside of creation?" (Ignoring that "always" is a time reference.)

They'd be forced to admit a change in God or that creation has always existed.

Clete

What really get me is that they cannot prove timelessness with scripture.
They add that to GOD even though scripture never does.


BTW, Clete, we have another thread going on that you might find interesting:
Time & Anthropomonorphism with GOD
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127701-Time-amp-Anthropomorphism-with-GOD

 

[Clete]

I know God has wrath and he will revenge his own, but I don't see the lake of fire as you all do.

As for my flaws, I've got many, I'm not perfect, and God will be my judge.

And I'm very straight and I'm not always softly softly when it comes to God, but I just don't say that I'll get some kind of enjoyment out of watching the wicked getting thrown into a lake of fire. That just sounds so wrong, why would anyone think like that. I'd just rather speak the truth and leave all the eternal judging to God.

I've even heard one person a while ago here, say to another that they will enjoy watching them burn in a lake of fire just because they didn't believe in the teachings that they believed in. That's how bad we can get.

And there are many Christians with a more wicked heart than many who others look down on. Just because they look all holy on the outside, doesn't mean they are. That's why only God truly knows the heart of all of us, and only he can properly judge us all.

Also, what do you believe the righteous washing their feet in the blood of the wicked to mean? Do you see that as natural?

No one would rightly enjoy seeing someone be punished for anything unless they deserved it, marhig. And it is perfectly natural for people to enjoy it when the wicked are justly punished. That's the reason movies like "Ransom" and "Die Hard" work and why movies like "Unforgiven" don't. The point, however, is that the guy getting it has to actually be deserving of what he's getting or else anyone's enjoyment of it would turn into something grotesque and ungodly.

God commands us repeatedly, throughout the scriptures to "practice justice". I suggest you snap to it and stop formulating your doctrine based on your emotional state of mind.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Derf]

I will not rejoice over anyone's destruction.

What about people who hate God and want to destroy all His believers? And won't repent?

 

[Evil.Eye.*{@}*]

No one would rightly enjoy seeing someone be punished for anything unless they deserved it, marhig. And it is perfectly natural for people to enjoy it when the wicked are justly punished. That's the reason movies like "Ransom" and "Die Hard" work and why movies like "Unforgiven" don't. The point, however, is that the guy getting it has to actually be deserving of what he's getting or else anyone's enjoyment of it would turn into something grotesque and ungodly.

God commands us repeatedly, throughout the scriptures to "practice justice". I suggest you snap to it and stop formulating your doctrine based on your emotional state of mind.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Proverbs 24:17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles,
18 lest the LORD see it and be displeased,
and turn away his anger from him.

19 Fret not yourself because of evildoers,
and be not envious of the wicked,
20 for the evil man has no future;
the lamp of the wicked will be put out.​

So... yes... God is Love and Love (Like the movie “Death Sentence”) can eradicate and eliminate utter wickedness.

The problem... is people that are wicked... that’s all humanity... that are forgiven... (He died for all, though some reject Him) speak of JUSTICE and rejoicing. The Saints in Heaven asking God... “How Much Longer?!?” Aren’t us ... here and now.

And... the events from scripture you use to gloat over the destruction of people... are set in apocalyptic climate. You literally bulldoze over the here and now and set up as a judge... here and now!

If God senses your deep eager willingness for bloodshed (And I will confess that love of bloodshed is one of my darkest weaknesses)... you could be numbered amongst the unredeemable wicked that are blackened in heart with hate for mankind and void of unconditional love, compassion and forgiveness that was imputed by God Himself!

It sounds cool to want to “Re-Criminalize” sins of the flesh (I don’t forget where people come from, Clete... I forgive... but I remember the heart and intent that people reveal... by their own mouth)... but we are all guilty of sin that deserves the death penalty... 1 John 1:8 and Jesus paying that penalty makes this clear!

I am willing to kill a man that would strike down a Pacifist like [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] or anyone who would harm the weak... but God forbid I feed my soul’s bloodlust!

Our DUTY as the Body is to LOVE... and yes Clete that’s with a soft, sensitive heart of flesh! Elsewise... we become Great Sharks of flesh devouring urges that have seared consciences!

The Moral Majority Lies that are political and infused into the Body are making the Light of Christ... the very Light of Love... go dim!

When the Body fully renounces Love... it will be fully salt and as salt that is thrown on a crop... it will prevent any growth from occurring ever again!

The flavor of our salt is LOVE Clete.

We as Christians could be Doctrinally correct in every point and believe... but per 1 Corinthians 13... if we don’t have unconditional Love that Jesus teaches... we all are less worthy than the lowest of all! No! This rejoicing in anyone’s demise... in the here and now... is dark souled immorality!

The blood stained hands that remember every person they have killed and weep over it... those are men of God!

The bloodstained hands that have feet that rush to take more blood... THE Devil owns and will take them!

Violence is Satan’s sweetest candy! Violence is the most devastating when God brings it, but Clete... God brings it with tears and sorrow! He will only be rejoicing over the peace that the possible annihilation of the hateful, bloodthirsty wickeds’ participation in creation... will surely bring.

Be weary, lest you forget all are of origin of God... thus all are His creations and children.

I served my country and was willing to kill! But, Clete, To perpetually rejoice over any death is to glorify the handy work of the Grim! It is to glory the Lord of the Flies! It is to exalt the work of the Dragon!

God came once and could have Killed like no other we can comprehend... but the system of Satan Killed Him...

Do the Spiritual Math! The Jews expected a conqueror and got a pacifist! If we as the Body Ache for a blood thirsty King... we too may find ourselves on the outside... looking in!