ECT Open Theism debate

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That said and 'understood' :rolleyes:, how can you believe God's grace is unmerited?

You will have to unpack that a wee bit for I am unwilling to make assumptions on what you actually mean. You have a frequent tendency to make sweeping statements loaded with unstated personal assumptions and then sit back to see if anyone takes the bait. I will not. :AMR1:

But since you brought the subject up, let me start by saying one must have a proper understanding of merit. Because we are prone to be “merit-mongers” in our fallen condition we must be careful not to give people the impression that we can, in our own strength, please God. One thing is important, therefore, in giving advice to an unregenerate (not yet born again) person, namely, to remind him of the danger of legality and self-righteousness. He must not suppose that by the use of the means of conviction—reading and hearing the word of God, avoiding all associations and practices that dissipate seriousness and quench conviction, and prayer that God would apply the truth to his conscience—he is doing a meritorious work that obliges God to the regenerating act. He must not imagine that 'by doing his own part,' as it is sometimes said, he can necessitate God to do His. This would make regeneration a debt—making God a debtor contrary to Matthew 20:1-16; Romans 11:35—not grace.

Condign merit is a situation where the action is in direct proportion to the reward, and where the action is of the kind necessary to obtain the reward. The example I use is very simple: when someone goes to purchase a car, and pays the full amount in cash, he has condignly merited the possession of the car by paying the money. In theology, there are two condign merit situations: Adam condignly merited Hell by his disobedience, and Jesus Christ condignly merited heaven for us by His obedience.

Congruent merit is similar to condign merit in that both condign and congruent merit have an action that matches in kind the reward. However, congruent merit is not sufficient in and of itself to merit the reward. Say a person has some money, but not enough money to purchase a car. Paying the money he has would not in and of itself merit possession of the car. However, if someone else chipped in and helped him, he would be able to own it. This is "merit with a little help" or "grace assisted help". In theology, this would be what Christians get to heaven by in works paradigms. Christians cannot intrinsically merit heaven, but they can, by God's helping grace, do enough works so that God will say it is enough, and forgive the rest. This is congruent merit. Protestants deny this kind of merit all through the loci. Romanists use this kind of merit in their system for good works meriting salvation (Christ providing the extra help), Arminians often unknowingly assume that their act of faith is meritorious, and Reformed folk never make these assumptions.

The last kind of merit is pactum merit, merit according to agreement, according to covenant. In this situation, the action does not correspond either in quality or quantity to the reward. A father promises his son that if the son gets a perfect score on his SAT exam, the father will buy him a car. Obviously, a son could not possibly go to a car store and turn in an SAT exam result and expect to walk out with a car. However, the father had bound himself to this agreement, and so if the son got said score, that would produce the car by means of the agreement. Considering Adam, we find that his obedience was owed to God. This means that Adam's works could not have merited heaven intrinsically. They were owed anyway. That rules out condign merit. And certainly congruent merit is wrong to describe Adam's works, since perfection was required by the agreement. There was no grading on a curve in the garden. That leaves merit according to pact. God bound Himself to give Adam eternal life (as in the glorified state) on condition of personal and perfect obedience. The basis for the giving of eternal life to Adam was Adam's non-condign-meriting works.

One will notice right away that there is a lack of symmetry between Adam's obedience and his disobedience. His disobedience condignly merits Hell. However, his obedience would only have merited Heaven by pact. However, the law of God requires condign merit of us now, a condition that only Christ can meet, since He did not owe obedience for Himself, and He offered up an infinitely efficacious merit on the cross.

AMR
 

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[MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION]

<More bildge> As usual, your standard mode of replying to what you can't reconcile to your 'muddled' religious clap trap. Smother them with copious amounts of minutia.
I am trying to be as irenic as I can in this informative thread. My presupposition is that there are not a few that may benefit from more substantial content on the matters behind the short snippets only possible in the face-to-face debates that are being discussed. This is a written venue, not a chat-box environment, hence the usual drive-bys, one liners, etc., that often accompany virtual verbal communications of mere "chatting" should not apply.

If the tenor of the thread is allowed to degenerate towards the seeking of mob currency by the use of vitriol and mockery, then the discussion has ended for me.

AMR
 

Tambora

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@Tambora


I am trying to be as irenic as I can in this informative thread. My presupposition is that there are not a few that may benefit from more substantial content on the matters behind the short snippets only possible in the face-to-face debates that are being discussed. This is a written venue, not a chat-box environment, hence the usual drive-bys, one liners, etc., that often accompany virtual verbal communications of mere "chatting" should not apply.

If the tenor of the thread is allowed to degenerate towards the seeking of mob currency by the use of vitriol and mockery, then the discussion has ended for me.

AMR
I understand and would not blame you.

Don't know how much longer I will be in this thread either.
I haven't quite made it through the 2nd video.
This is the first time I've watched Matt Slick debate, and it's hard to watch.
He's not answering much at all, and his constant responses of "sorta is and sorta isn't" just gets tiresome and boring.
I don't know how Will Duffy managed to keep his cool as well as he did.
 

Tambora

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I watched both but commented after the first one. Then I watched some of part 2 again and I see what you're saying. I also watched part of a podcast with Matt but it never went anywhere.
To me, Matt is what I call a 'tactic debater' and he used several tactics.
Poisoning the well was one of the first ones he used in his opening statement with all the Mormonism stuff.
He used the tactic of repeating himself in his answers and giving much longer answers than needed (filler-busting), and thus your opponent has less time to ask more questions.
He kept trying to move the goal posts to dominate the debate towards predestination instead of 'is GOD loving'.
Instead of answering a direct question he would offer to study it out with you later so you could learn ----- (in my school debate class you would have lost points big time for doing something like that to your opponent. And Matt did it a lot.).
 

Tambora

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@Tambora


I am trying to be as irenic as I can in this informative thread. My presupposition is that there are not a few that may benefit from more substantial content on the matters behind the short snippets only possible in the face-to-face debates that are being discussed. This is a written venue, not a chat-box environment, hence the usual drive-bys, one liners, etc., that often accompany virtual verbal communications of mere "chatting" should not apply.

If the tenor of the thread is allowed to degenerate towards the seeking of mob currency by the use of vitriol and mockery, then the discussion has ended for me.

AMR
Let's get [MENTION=12969]Sherman[/MENTION] involved and see if she wants to clean it up, or keep an eye on it to see if it continues.
 

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I beg to differ. Here are your own words taken from a post of yours in answer to one of mine in the quote below.
God is His attributes. The what of God is the that of God. All God’s attributes are primary, none can be elevated above the other to claim that the other attributes are somehow subordinate to something else in God. Hence, God is His attributes...all of them.
AMR
 

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I understand and would not blame you.

Don't know how much longer I will be in this thread either.
I haven't quite made it through the 2nd video.
This is the first time I've watched Matt Slick debate, and it's hard to watch.
He's not answering much at all, and his constant responses of "sorta is and sorta isn't" just gets tiresome and boring.
I don't know how Will Duffy managed to keep his cool as well as he did.
Will seemed a gentle soul, unflappable when he should have been more pressing. A few times, I wanted to reach through the screen and pinch him to make sure he was still breathing. ;)

Matt's condescension was irksome, I will gladly admit. As I noted at the beginning of the thread, I think he just phoned in his performance as he obviously was not well-studied on matters and common objections raised by open theists. I suspect he never once took the time to review the formal open theist debates at this site. As well, there were times when he just missed opportunities to drive some vital points homeward because he was too occupied with minutia. A good debater knows his audience and has studied them well. Matt's lack of debate prep was well in evidence.

He obviously has steeped himself in Mormonism and watching his videos dealing with them is a very different Matt than he was at these open theism debates. It is too bad he was not made the offer to ascend the pulpit at DBC while in town. His post-debate podcast indicated that he was not made aware that the offer to do was on the table until he had left town.

AMR
 

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<More bildge> As usual, your standard mode of replying to what you can't reconcile to your 'muddled' religious clap trap. Smother them with copious amounts of minutia.

Get real.. Your problem is that you demand everyone smoke your brand for hope to reason through your convoluted conceited presentations.. No one speaks like you write and that isn't meant to be a compliment..

I would assume no one speaks as they write. The former is extemporaneous, the latter should be more studied and deliberate. If they are not, then one has no real faculty of proper reasoning and discourse, rather they are just pouring whatever pops into their noggin out on paper (or the screen). Which is to say, I am not here to "chat" in most instances. The context of a thread dictates if it is light banter. The context of this thread is not so dictated.

Those that have nothing really to say about the substance of the debates being discussed should perhaps refrain from giving ample evidence of the same. :AMR: Along those lines, if and when you are able to gain control of yourself, perhaps you will return to the opening of my earlier response and actually provide the information I was seeking. While you are at it, please try to properly capture the quote tags when quoting another so that all can easily return to the original post to examine its full context.

AMR
 

Tambora

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Will seemed a gentle soul, unflappable when he should have been more pressing. A few times, I wanted to reach through the screen and pinch him to make sure he was still breathing. ;)
I know!
I started wondering if he was being that timid on purpose just to let Matt hang himself. hehe!
The contrast between the two was very visible in that Duffy was so still and Matt was so fidgety and on edge.
Like one on downers and the other on uppers!!!
But yeah, I would have liked to have seen Duffy be more assertive in interrupting Matt more for going down rabbit trails that were unresponsive to the question.

Duffy did have a couple of good moments where he stopped Matt in his tracks and made him shut up and start thinking.

Matt's condescension was irksome, I will gladly admit. As I noted at the beginning of the thread, I think he just phoned in his performance as he obviously was not well-studied on matters and common objections raised by open theists. I suspect he never once took the time to review the open theist debates at this site. As well, there were times when he just missed opportunities to drive some vital points homeward because he was too occupied with minutia.

He obviously has steeped himself in Mormonism and watching his videos dealing with them is a very different Matt than he was at these open theism debates. It is too bad he was not made the offer to ascend the pulpit at DBC while in town. His post-debate podcast indicated that he was not made that offer until he had left town.

AMR
It might be unfortunate that this was my first time to watch Matt debate live, so my first impression is not too positive.
Of course, I was biased going into the video, as I am Open View, so it gives me an excuse to say, "See how wacko Calvinists are when answering questions!"
That's always a plus. :D
 

JudgeRightly

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To be honest, I think Bob Enyart would have been a better Open Theist to go up against Matt, mainly because he think on his feet a bit better than Will seemed to be able to. Will was good, but I think Matt would have been on the run the entire time if it had been Bob instead of Will.
 

Tambora

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Some things GOD does are in vain and does not produce His intended result.


Jeremiah 2:30 KJV
(30) In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.
 

Gary K

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God is His attributes. The what of God is the that of God. All God’s attributes are primary, none can be elevated above the other to claim that the other attributes are somehow subordinate to something else in God. Hence, God is His attributes...all of them.
AMR

I disagree with your primary idea here. If God is equal parts love, hate, wrath, etc... than He is no different morally than we are. And, His injunctions to us to love Him with all our heart, soul, and might are pretty much meaningless for implied in those injunctions is the primacy of love. Plus, Paul tells us in Ephesians 3:16-19 that we are to be rooted and grounded in love, through the indwelling of the might of the Holy Spirit, that we might know the height, depth, breadth and length of the love of Christ so that we might know the fullness of the love the God. Once again, the scriptures are showing us the primacy of love. How about I Corinthians 13 too? We are nothing if we have not love. It doesn't matter how many spiritual gifts we have, if we don't have love it is meaningless. What was it Paul said constrains us? The love of Christ, or in other words, the love of God.

And what is included in the works of the flesh in Galatians 5? Hatred and wrath are included right along with sexual immorality, witchcraft, envy etc... If these are sinful things, and Paul says that those who practice such things will never enter the kingdom of God, then we cannot say God has these attributes in the same way we do, for He is sinless. His morality is perfect.
 

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Tambora

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If God is continually learning, then was the God of Abraham less knowledgeable than God is right now?

Genesis 22:12 KJV
(12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
 
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Genesis 22:12 KJV
(12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

This is a locus classicus appealed to by Sanders, who writes, “God needs to know if Abraham is the sort of per- son on whom God can count for collaboration toward the fulfillment of the divine project. Will he be faithful? Or must God find someone else through whom to achieve his purpose?” (Sanders, The God Who Risks, pp. 52-53; and see also Boyd, God of the Possible, p. 64.)

But if so, how shall we understand God’s promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:2-3: “And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed”?

If this covenant could be fulfilled through another, then what does God’s word really mean? Furthermore, if Abraham fails this test, what assurances can we have that another, and then another, and then another, might not also fail?

It is staggering simply to consider seriously the implications of the open view, that God is some sort of cosmic Spectator hoping Abraham will do the right thing, when placed alongside a passage as central to all of biblical theology and redemptive history as Genesis 12:1-3.

If, as God speaks forth this covenant promise, God is wondering whether Abraham really will be the person through whom the nations will be blessed, how can the language of this passage (Genesis 12:1-3) be understood?

The unconditional nature of Gensis 12:1-3 assures us that God knows and will ensure that through Abraham and his offspring (cf. Gen. 12:7) the promised blessing will come. Certainly, the Genesis narrative that follows is only meant to confirm this understanding, for here we see Sarah, then Abraham, unable to parent children, bringing them and the fulfillment of God’s covenant promise to a point of crisis. Surely then, the miraculous conception of Isaac in Genesis 21 is intentionally designed to demonstrate the power of God to keep his word and do just as he has promised. But that’s just it: per the open theist view, God’s promise cannot be assured because God cannot know what Abraham and Sarah will do, and hence, God cannot have asserted with certainty in Genesis 12 that Abraham (and no one else) would be the one through whom the promised blessing to the nations would come. But since God did so assert Abraham as the provider of the promised offspring of blessing, the open theist view concerning Genesis 22:12 fails.

Passages such as this are written after the manner of man's thinking, accommodations to our finitude. God is not making some new discovery. Consider, David prayed that God would search and know his heart, and his thoughts, Psalm 139:23. Are we to assume God did not already know this? David certainly did not assume as such, for he had before professed that God understood his thought afar off, Ge 22:2.

Now I know
, that is to say,

Now I have what I designed and desired; now I have made you and others to know, just as the Spirit of God and of Christ is said to cry Abba, Father in Galatians 4:6, when the Spirit of God makes us to cry so, Romans 8:15.

AMR
 
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Tambora

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This is a locus classicus appealed to be Sanders, who writes, “God needs to know if Abraham is the sort of per- son on whom God can count for collaboration toward the fulfillment of the divine project. Will he be faithful? Or must God find someone else through whom to achieve his purpose?” (Sanders, The God Who Risks, pp. 52-53; and see also Boyd, God of the Possible, p. 64.)


But if so, how shall we understand God’s promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:2-3: “And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed”?

If this covenant could be fulfilled through another, then what does God’s word really mean? Furthermore, if Abraham fails this test, what assurances can we have that another, and then another, and then another, might not also fail?
I don't have the same view as Sanders.
I do not think GOD would have had to choose another son of Abraham to fulfill the promise if Abraham had killed Isaac.
GOD could have brought Isaac back to life as He did others.
So GOD waiting to see what Abraham would do with Isaac does not discredit Open View at all, nor does it discredit if GOD could fulfill His promise.


It is staggering simply to consider seriously the implications of the open view, that God is some sort of cosmic Spectator hoping Abraham will do the right thing, when placed alongside a passage as central to all of biblical theology and redemptive history as Genesis 12:1-3.

If, as God speaks forth this covenant promise, God is wondering whether Abraham really will be the person through whom the nations will be blessed, how can the language of this passage (Genesis 12:1-3) be understood?

The unconditional nature of Gensis 12:1-3 assures us that God knows and will ensure that through Abraham and his offspring (cf. Gen. 12:7) the promised blessing will come. Certainly, the Genesis narrative that follows is only meant to confirm this understanding, for here we see Sarah, then Abraham, unable to parent children, bringing them and the fulfillment of God’s covenant promise to a point of crisis. Surely then, the miraculous conception of Isaac in Genesis 21 is intentionally designed to demonstrate the power of God to keep his word and do just as he has promised. But that’s just it: per the open theist view, God’s promise cannot be assured because God cannot know what Abraham and Sarah will do, and hence, God cannot have asserted with certainty in Genesis 12 that Abraham (and no one else) would be the one through whom the promised blessing to the nations would come. But since God did so assert Abraham as the provider of the promised offspring of blessing, the open theist view concerning Genesis 22:12 fails.
Gonna have to deal with the word "now" and why it was specifically in the text.
Now, at this time, from henceforth.
I suggest that that word is there as truth and not some idiom.
Otherwise the verse would simply say:
(12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me


But that "now" is most definitely there and we should accept it.

(12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me


There is nothing in the verse that disagrees with the Open View.
It only disagrees with Calvinism.
 

Ktoyou

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Well that's not the heart that Abraham had for the people of Sodom, he wanted to help save as many as he could, even down to ten if possible. And God was willing for him to try. And he's willing for us to try too through Christ.

Why would you say good when thinking that people may burn in a lake of fire? I can see you standing there warming your hands as they get chucked in! Would you say the same if it was your own family?

God wants us all back, and we are not to want others to burn in lakes of fire, but rather to help them through Christ and have hope that they will believe the truth and turn to God.

You want to know why i think you are a dumbbell? You seem to not understand that, at times, members post a little humor, and not always attempting to reach the next level of theological insight.

Web forums are basically social interaction, you miss this practical insight.
 

Derf

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That's infortunate because there a big difference. Will means, "no choice in the matter" But then His love TO His Father left Him with no choice in the matter. His will was the father's will.
I've never, ever heard that definition for "will". Could you give me a cross reference, please?


God always has His plans worked out in advance. Those through whom He chooses to work His will for His purposes are merely given the opportunity to be blessed and advanced in the knowing of His ways.. A "Moses" kind of thing.
Could you explain the '"Moses" kind of thing' reference? I don't know what you mean.

Jesus could have quit anytime He wanted but there would have been no way for man to be redeemed had he done so.
So, He did have a choice in the matter, and the only consequence is that man would not be saved? But then, Jesus was man, so if man is not redeemed, is Jesus not redeemed also?

Not for Adam's sin, since it did not have a hold on Him (due to virgin birth, I presume), but now due to His own sin. What sin was that--not doing what the Father wanted Him to do.

So I think you have just said Jesus could have sinned--is that what you're saying?
 

Derf

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The unconditional nature of Gensis 12:1-3 assures us that God knows and will ensure that through Abraham and his offspring (cf. Gen. 12:7) the promised blessing will come.

?????

This is not an unconditional promise. The text makes it obvious--if Abraham leaves Haran (Gen 12:1 KJV), God will do these things (Gen 12:2 KJV). That's conditional.

When Abraham reaches Canaan (Gen 12:7 KJV), God gives him the beginning of the fulfillment of the conditional promise. Why? Because Abraham had already obeyed God in the leaving of Haran and going where God would show him--without knowing where the destination was.

If Abraham was willing to trust God in that rather scary way (leaving home and family without knowing where you are going), God was ready to affirm His end of the bargain.

You have to read the passage with your eyes closed not to see a conditional promise.
 
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